Alignment issue (or at least that's what I think)

Guys me again!

Now that I'm back from vacations I'm resuming the work on my 70 GS. The last year I did the front end suspension rebuild and also buy some new tires but at this moment the car isn't safety enough to drive

Before doing that work the steering was too soft and sensitive that make me hesitate doing more than 50mph but now after all this work the steering is just unsafe, even at 35 I feel like I'm going to loose control at any second, only standing my hand in the steering wheel makes the car steer to any place.

I though that was an alignment issue so took the car to the alignment shop, the guy did his work but I don't feel like something improved. According to a mopar friend he told me that when using modern tires on our old cars sometimes "normal" alignment specs doesn't works and for example the toe specification should be different than what the alignment shop might think

That's the first time that I heard that but I think it makes sense. So, any recommendation? my car this way is just undrivable

 

What is it doing?

-pulling hard to one side or the other?

-too much play/slop in the steering wheel?

-Something else?

Can you list parts you have changed and manufacturer(s)?

 

Pulls to all places, if I barely touch the steering wheel it steers too much, the play in the steering wheel has ever been less than 1/4 of turn before and after steering box rebuild

All of those parts were changed except the idler arm and pitman arm, I inspected both and they are on really good shape without any kind of play so I prefer to leave the stock and store the news just in case

What do you mean by "is the frame sound?", I haver never touched or modified the frame and as far as I've inspected it while working under the car it looks really solid and rust free

The rear suspension is brand new too, bushings, shocks and coils are new. On both rear and front I used Moog and ACDelco parts, the parts list is this:

-Rear and Front Moog Coil Springs
-Rear and Front KYB Gas-a-just shock absorvers
-Rear bushings all ACDelco
-Front control arms bushings, Upper Moog, lower ACDelco
-Ball Joints ACDelco
-Timken Wheel Bearings
-ACDelco Tie rods
-Moog Sway bar bushings and links

Now that I was checking the alignment report I think the guy messed something because the camber and toe values are all about 0 (zero) degrees. What values could be recommended for modern tires?

 

I have modern rims and low profile tires on my boat, and I had the alignment set at a little toe in. On a rwd you have toe in, and on fwd you have toe out..

I can't remember how much, but I think we found data on another big, newer rwd car, and used those specs..

 

Zero camber & castor? That's an odd setting. Every car I can think off has some of both, be it negative or positive. I'd be asking for as much neg camber & pos castor as the shims will allow.
On the toe side 1/16 to an 1/8th. With zero castor it's gonna dance all over the road. Think of riding a bike with vertical front forks.
Not sure what it's like on your side of the Pacific, here in Aus it's hard to find a decent wheel alignment guy. Most just want to do the toe in & that's it.

 

The ratio wasn't touched, the rebuilt was just replacing seals, bearings, gaskets and have everything cleaned.

I think that's the perfect description of what's going on, finding decent alignment shops here is easy but finding alignment shops that knows how to deal with old cars is a nightmare so that's why I need to know what specifications could be better for my ride so then I can go to the alignment shop and tell them to setup the car that way

Both upper arms have shims, the passenger side has 3 shims on a bolt and 2 on the other, the driver side has 1 shim on one bolt and 4 in the other

 

According to what book you look into for specs. Caster can be any where from +1/2 +or- 1/2 to -1/2 +or- 1/2 ALL books come back with the same camber figures of +1/2 +or-1/2. Toe 1/8-1/4" toe-in. Caster has NOTHING to do with tire wear. That has to do with camber & toe. With that being said for today's tires & suspension upgrades at my shop I would have put in as MUCH positive caster as possible. They make offset upper shafts that can accommodate a +1* or - 1* diff. in caster & camber. The reason these were made was to accommodate the problem of the "Cradle" sagging after so many years & not being able to get the camber readings to correct.
I would set it up for + 4 or more positive caster. -1/4 +or - 1/2 for camber. Toe settings remain the same. 1/8-1/4.= .125"-.250". In the middle 3/16ths. = .1875". Now divide that in half for each front wheel & you end up with .009" each wheel +or- .001".
That should make a huge improvement over what you have right now.

BUT I think the problem is more related to the steering box. May what to check that out 1st. Even if you do the alignment to the above specs. & things DON'T change replacing the box later will have no affect on the alignment.
Just my thoughts on the subject.


Tom T.

 

Im with Telriv steering gear... Do you know any history of the gear box? If That box came from a general auto parts store more than likely its a bad rebuild. In fact most parts stores don't sell rebuilt gear boxes just resealed.. Get a hold of member Hector on this site. I don't know his handle..
My self I got a redhead head steering gear on all my trucks and buick..

 

Also there is a valve in the PS pump. If that thing is out of whac. That can be scary. it's the pressure valve.

Just for the hell of it remove the drive belt see what happens..

And of course be careful when trying this.

 

Lets add fluid to the issue also. Change it...

 

CARHEX1

He's a gem!

 

No, they only gave me a printed report of the new alignment specs, I'm not sure where I have the paper I only have the specs on my cellphone.

Is the stock Saginaw gearbox

Fluid is new, The system was completely empty due to a leak on the gearbox

Maybe maybe that could add some to the issue, sometimes I heard the PS pump making a sound like when an electric hydraulic pump is pumping a lot of pressure and If I touch the high pressure line on that moment I can feel it vibrating. But I'm pretty sure know that alignment has something to do here, the thing started to go crazy just after the suspension rebuild and wheels change

Let me search again the alignment specs the shop gave to me after doing the work and post them here

 

Way too many places to address. You need to divide and conquer.

The first thing I'd do since you have all new components is to check that everything is tight. Nothing was left loose like an idler arm.

Then, make sure the alignment has several degree of positive caster and a touch of negative camber. These cars can be made to handle great with a little effort. I personally have mine set for +5° caster and -1° camber.

If that doesn't clear it up, check the gear box. The set nut and allen bolt in the top will take the slack out of the gear box if it had excessive play.

With the tires off the ground and the car off, put an allen wrench in the top and loosen the lock nut. Tighten the allen bolt 1/4 turn and lock the nut down. Then turn the steering wheel lock to lock and make sure it isn't hitting a hard spot. See if that helps.

 

These boxes should self bleed with a running engine at idle and turning the steering wheel back and forth . Usually 2 or 3 turns lock to lock bleeds them . Then turn off and wait. You can see the air bubbles in the pump reservoir .

If that doesn't help you should Pressure test the pump. Pumps are usually in the 800-1500 PSI range. You said the pump went dry because of a leak . maybe you burned the pump out.

Adjusting the steering lash at the Pitman shaft will not help bleed the gearbox. All that adjustment does is tighten the gear mesh. Middle of the road adjustment is to tighten it down till you feel it has bottomed with out forcing it down and then back off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. It MUST be held or it will change as you tighten the lock nut.

 

Ok Now You just answered your own question. The noise and the vibration is NOT normal... What I don't why are you blaming the new aliment.
Truth be told you changed Way to many parts all at the same time.. to isolate the the problem..
you also state

Who did this..

 

Was done between my mechanic and myself

The box was bled that way and for double checking the mechanic did vacuum bleed on the pump

This weekend looked for the alignment sheet on all the car without success, but I gave a bit of positive toe on both front wheels and that made a difference like day and night! I steel feel like the car is not stable enough to enjoy driving it but at least is some improvement.

I think I'm going to take the car tomorrow or at thursday to a different alignment shop and see what happens, I've been really busy this days to work on the car

 

Just go by the alignment specs. I posted. Tell them to FORGET what the machine says & use my alignment specs. as others have suggested also.


Tom T.

 

I don't know how true this is, maybe someone can add to it, but I am told that not all shops and all alignment machines can do a proper job on the older cars. Make sure the shop is familiar with the correct way to do it.