The A/C is disconnected on my 76 Electra. The man I bought it from said it needs a recharge. I am aware of the ban against freon because of ozone layer crap. My question is this, how much would a ballpark price be to recharge with r134a and upgrading the A/C system for higher pressure? Another question is, are there places that will recharge with freon, or could I buy freon and charge it myself? How much would a charging tool be?
I don't think there is a ban on it, it's just "discouraged". The places around here charge around $80 to recharge a/c. However, *if* your car is already equipped to use r-134a, you can get a recharge kit for $20 from here.
Check into Freeze12. It is a direct drop in for R-12 with no converting of anything except for the fittings. I've used it on several of my cars and like it much better than the 134a I've tried. www.freeze12.com
a/c conversion hi my name is craig and i run a garage in wa state. you can get the adapters to put in 134a for about $ 6-10 ea plus a recharge kit very easily done too. if you are going that route and have a few extra bucks change the filter dryer as well and add some oil/with dye.then if there are any leaks you will find them that way the system will be in top condition.:beer
Freon (R12) is not banned. It's just not being manufactured anymore. There's still a fairly large supply of it around, but it's very expensive. You cannot legally purchase or handle R12 unless you have EPA 609 Certification. Most A/C shops can re-charge your system with R12. Whether you choose to stay with R12 or to retrofit with R134, it would be a good idea to fix any leaks first or you'll just be wasting your time and money. Whatever you do, do not use "Duracool" or any other HC based R12 substitutes. They are not accepted by the EPA, as they are highly flammable. It would be like the Hindenburg on wheels. Larry
Be aware also that 134 runs at higher pressures than the old 12 stuff. This is what I was told anyway. And trying to do a cheap conversion over without changing over everything will just result in the system leaking.
You can do it your self. I been buying it for about $18.00 a can (R12). I would not change it over to another refrigerant because of system compacity (134a needs a larger condenser to remove the heat) and operates at higher pressures not to mention incompatablity of the refridgerant oils. Sorry to make this long but there even more to it then this. So in short I would stick with R12. AL
You can head to ebay.com and grab r-12 from there, a quick search just turned up 156 auctions and one was 2 12oz cans for $40.
R409A is also an economical substitute for R-12 and I don't know why the repair industry has not adopted it. It only requires that R-12 be removed and the system be re-filled with R-409A and this has worked fine for me. However; you need a license to buy it so this is not an option for the average joe. I am not sure why the shops don't use it except that maybe they make more profit on the R-12. I appreciated the feedback on Freeze-12 because I have heard of it but didn't know anyone who used it before now. I would not recommend R-134A for the same reasons listed above.
I will look into just buying some and charging it up myself. I have never tampered with any A/C, so what are some things to check on?
Since your system is either leaking or not working at all (compressor seized) you will not be able to fix it yourself unless you are qualified. You cannot top off with R134A because it is not compatible. R-12 or any direct replacement cannot be bought or sold without a license. Any shop that works on it will encourage you to retrofit to R134A, and that will be the most economical long term solution for you. This initial investment means you can do the work yourself the next time it needs to be fixed. Retrofitting involves a new compressor, flush lines, replace oil, new dryer, new o-rings. Plus replacement of whatever is leaking.
No. At the risk of starting a 3 page arguement, I just want to say that Duracool works great, I used it in mine and I would recommend it to anybody. How about that 30 lb. propane tank on your gas grill? Or the gas tank full of 20 gallons of flammable liquid? Do you know that r-134 is explosive? It also can cause heart failure if inhaled........read the warnings on the can. And your worried about 4 lbs. of Duracool?
I will look into either the freon or the freeze-12 substitute. Do you guys have the license to get the freon, or are you just saying you have the intent to resell?
Hello, I have used some stuff called enviro-safe. I had great luck in my old suburban with it but problems in wifes 94 caravan but not sure problem is from the refrigerent yet. It is real simple to install if system is already empty. The system don't need a vacuum in it to install, in fact it says on the can not to install with a vacuum in the system or over charge may happen. I have no idea what the stuff is and I know very little about air conditioning. The makers also claim it cools much better than 134 and runs at much lower pressures. I just got a case of 12 cans off ebay for $50 with the shipping. just my 2 cents, Tom
Just an FYI.......envirocool, freeze 12, and the like (there are 6 or 8 of them) all are blends which contain mostly r-134. They are mixed with other chemicals that enables it mix with mineral oil. That makes it easier to use b/c no flushing is necessary, but without proper installation it will not cool well with a poa system. Blends are not a good idea, b/c every system will leak over a period of time. Usually what happens with blends, is one chemical will escape first and leave the other behind, potentially causing damage to the system. R-134 has very small molecules and escapes first. That's why those "retro kits" always come with a can of sealer. I have researched this subject extensively, and have heard arguements from both sides. Whenever I point out the reasons why I will not use r-134 in my r-12 system a really big arguement usually follows. If you are going to use 134, you MUST flush the system, use ester oil, use 134 compatible "o" rings and a 134 compatible reciever-dryer. Also, you must make an adjustment to the poa valve in order for the pressure to be low enough to cool well. Then over time it all usually leaks out anyway. Professional repair shops hate blends b/c they contaminate thier recycling equipment. If you bring in a car to them with a blend in it, they must either refuse to do the job, or break the law and dump the blended refrigerant into the atmosphere and then we will all die. If you elect to use anything but r-134 or r-12 it helps a lot if you are capable of doing ALL of your own work yourself. I don't think big brother is hiding in the bushes waiting to catch you venting noxious gasses into the atmosphere unless you do it daily. My position is if you can't get r-12 or can't afford it then hydrocarbon based refrigerant (Duracool hc-12 a) is the most logical alternative. It is not accepted by the EPA for motor vehicle use, but it is not illegal to sell and is only illegal to install into a motor vehicle in some states. It is not explosive, but it is flammable. All 4 lbs. of it. :bglasses:
Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to back up my comments. I do not deny that Duracool and similar refrigerants work well, but they are composed mainly of propane or butane, and although my "Hindenberg" comment was a bit extreme, they are flammable and are illegal for use in automotive A/C systems in many jurisdictions. With this in mind I refrain from encouraging their use. That's all. Your comment on propane BBQ tanks is not a good argument though. Propane tanks are not sitting in the front ends of cars travelling down the highway at 65 mph in cars that are not designed for it. And to address your comment about gasoline tanks, I'll refer to the following paragraph taken from the EPA web sight: "There are good reasons why gasoline and other fluids may be used safely while the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in A/C systems may not be safe. Gasoline and other flammable substances are used in systems designed specifically for flammable fluids. A gas tank is deliberately placed in the middle of the rear part of a vehicle to protect it against collisions. Air conditioner condensers, in contrast, are placed at the very front of the car to maintain good air flow. Unfortunately, this location means that condensers may be punctured during a front-end collision. Another difference is that unlike gasoline lines, air conditioners include lines that provide cooling directly to occupied areas -- in this case, passenger compartments. Flammability risk is extremely dependent on the specific system being considered; the simple presence of other flammable fluids in a car does not address the safety of using hydrocarbon refrigerants in an automobile air conditioner." While it is true that R134a is flammable under certain conditions, it will not ignite in free air as will Duracool. Check the following excerpts taken from the EPA: "Flammability, as defined by the American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) E-681 standard test procedure for refrigerants, means that a substance will ignite at atmospheric pressure when mixed in some concentration in air at normal temperature and pressure. " "Hydrocarbons, like the components of HC-12a and DURACOOL 12a, are classified as flammable." "Hydrocarbons, like the components of HC-12a and DURACOOL 12a, become flammable at concentrations as low as 2% by volume. " "HFC-134a does not ignite, regardless of concentration, at atmospheric temperatures and pressures. This means that at atmospheric pressures and temperatures, if a can of HFC-134a is opened and a lit match is placed in front of the can, the HFC-134a will extinguish the match." The concern is that it is possible that your evaporator could get punctured in a collision and introduce propane into the passenger compartment. And if it does, since Duracool is more likely to ignite in free air than R134a, the risk of someone in the car getting burned is greater with the Duracool than with the R134a. Even only 4 lbs of propane is quite a bit - that's 20% of a standard 20lb BBQ tank charge. You chose to use Duracool and are happy with it. That's fine. As for me, I'm sticking with R12. I am not an environmentalist, nor am I a comsumer advocate. Personally I don't care what refrigerant is used, I am not advising anyone on what to use, and I am not going to report anyone to the Freon Police. I just think that anyone who is thinking about using Duracool, or any other alternative refrigerant for that matter, should get all the information first so that they can make an informed decision. There's nothing wrong with that, is there? And BTW, I fully agree with your opinions on blends such as Freeze-12 and retro-fitting with R134a. :TU: Here's the link to the EPA web sight with lots of info on Duracool and other refrigerants too: http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html#q5 Also, for anyone interested in DIY automotive A/C repair, I found an excellent web sight with a message board with a lot of useful information: http://www.ackits.com/ "Select A/C Information Forum" on the left side of the screen. Cheers. Larry
The reason that I am posting this is because Nailhead sent me an email. Most people do not realize that 134a technically is not flammable by the UL standards, but is combustible at 5.5 psi at 351 degrees. Why hasn't there ever been any studies on the burn temperature of 134a when it does ignite from combustion? Because they really don't want you to know the temperature it burns at. I thought for the first few years it burned at around 10,000 degrees by the burn patterns I found on the cars that I took pictures of on the highway and in salvage yards. Later I was told by an instructor from BMW in San Francisco that 134a burns between 12,000 and 12,500 degrees. I really don't know because I have no way of testing the burn temperature, but I do know that from the burn patterns that it is much hotter than gasoline or diesel fuel that burns between 1,400 and 1,800 degrees depending on the amount of air that is available. Duracool ( HC12a ) does burn at an ignition temperature of 1,627 degrees, but after 9 years of selling the product I do not know of anyone personally who has been injured by it. Gary Lindgren (the patent holder) submitted to the USEPA another petition last August for their approval to replace R12 with HC12a. In his petition he gave documentation from his insurance company that since 1994 he has produced 1 million gallons of HC12a with an estimated 3 to 5 million cars being changed over since 1994 without one single incident of accident or injury. Do you know of any product that has that type of track record. I personally do not care if people have a/c or not, to me it is a luxury that not everyone can afford. If people do choose to use 134a or one of the 134a blends they need to look at my other website www.deadly134.com before they put it into their car. Many have accused me of putting down 134a because they believe that I am doing it to try to promote the product I sell. This is not the case. I just want people to know what Dupont and our Government have done to the people of this country. What most people do not realize is that HC12a has always been acceptable to replace 134a by the USEPA under section 612 of the SNAP guidelines. Charles Fox
The cost for converting my three Wildcats (63 and 65) to 134 was about triple the cost for just having an evac and recharge with R 12. Of course if your system needs major work, it would be better to do the PROPER conversion to 134.
