Power window relays above drivers kick panel usually had just one screw holding it on even though relay has two holes.
You guys are getting way past what a Judge can "see" while reviewing a car. What you are not realizing is we only have about 5 minutes to "judge" any particular car on the field. If you guys, as owners, want to get this exacting that is fine, even admirable, but in reality you will not see the cars judged to this level at any of the events I listed previously. And believe me, I more then most can certainly understand the desire and even "need" that drives some people to find the answers, because I am one of you. There is another point to this, Judges need to have knowledge about a certain range of vehicles, and not 1 single specific car. If you dig into your car ad-infinitium then you should not be surprised to find you know more about your car then any Judge. The other thing is this, if your particular car has something on it that is out of the ordinary, then be ready (at the show field) to prove your point. (If asked.) With some events, and I think the BCA is one of them, your score is your score. You can send for your judging sheets after the event, and will have the opportunity to petition for changes, but that will only be good for the next events and will not change the score of any past events. This makes sense as there are too many cars getting judged and not enough time to get everything done as it is. What some people are wanting and I believe "1970 Stage 1" is after, is a pedigree for their car. There are a few events still around that do this but not many. Greg Donahue did a class like this years ago. You would send in all the info for your car, including a completely decoded build sheet, and then he would decide if the car met the criteria, as in if it was even worthy to be judged at this level. If the answer was yes, then he did a 1000 point judging, and this was after he took the time to do research on that particular car model before the event. This type of judging looked at every part number/date code etc. and involved taking some things off the car for inspection. It also took into account the date codes of the tires. I have been asked many times to do something like this for A-Body Buicks, but frankly there isn't one on the planet that would survive. Then you get into the "Survivor" classes. I don't know the ins and outs of the rules for these classes, but see people on here taking parts off, refurbishing them, and then putting them back on. That might be OK for these classes, as I said above I don't know, but you should make sure what you are doing meets the class criteria for whatever class you put your car in. This is all supposed to be fun, and to help us continue a search for knowledge. We should keep it that way, and that's why cars are judged to certain levels. Duane
I have volunteered my time to help people with a list of items needed to help make their cars better. Have also pre judged a few cars before the show to find any obvious items. Spent time afterwards with owners explaining what was found. Countless hours on the phone. As Duane has said there is limited time to judge these vehicles. The cars that show up in concourse are all beautiful cars an most of the items are minor deductions. The quality of these restorations is a testament to the dedication the owners have for these cars.
But why make it a 5 minute walk up. I judge MCA classes and every level of car has a different sheet and criteria to judge. If the person asks you can get your sheet to see what each judge deducted points for. Each judge is going to have a different idea of your car also. It just makes sense to me that different levels of cars require a more knowledgeable judge and more dedication on the owner’s part to correctness. Up the game to match the level of cars. This is not a complaint but just an observation on my part. If the knowledge exists to make Buicks better let’s get it out there for everyone to use.
I don't know what MCA Classes are, so you would have to elaborate on that, but again each event has it's own rules. I hear your pain. Anyone that knows me knows that my expertise is the 68-70 A-Bodies, with a much deeper knowledge of the 70-72 cars, yet at least twice the BCA asked me to judge the 64-67 cars. Not to say that I don't know them, as I did have a 66 GS for a while, but that was not the best usage of my knowledge. Why was that done? You would have to take it up with the powers that be. My gut feeling is they did not have enough judges for the 64-67 class, and as I knew something about them............. "If the knowledge exists to make Buicks better let’s get it out there for everyone to use." I don't know where you have been, but that is exactly what this board is all about. There are many of us, like myself, Brad Conley, Dave Tumas, Tim & Rich Garland, and a slew of others, who openly give their knowledge freely, without a single thought of compensation. This is where you get more then your 5 minutes of consideration. Why not consider the boards as getting the car pre-judged, which is exactly what it is. As Dave Tumas said above, we often pre-judge cars days before the events. Believe me we would much rather do this to get a "better" car to judge. It makes our day go much easier. Currently I am not a member of any car club, but if you have objections to how the BCA or GSCA judges the cars then get involved and change it. All you have to do is step up to the plate. Duane
Be careful what you ask for, it may not be pretty .. LOL.. Is there a written set of rules for any Buick Club that is published for a member to see what his or her car requires as original equipment ? For example , the question you answered about Pliacells , that info should be in a guideline for 1970 to 1972 cars. BCA should have published year specific judging guidelines for every car. That would make this process much better for all. Known and published rules for judging, Christmas present to all.
Back in 2005 I received a BCA Gold award and in 2006 I was awarded gold in the concourse class at the BPG show for my '68 GS Convertible. My car is by no way a high dollar restoration (it was last painted in 1978) but it remains mostly original with the correct parts (even the door lock knobs ) and it was driven 250 miles there and then back, one of those days in the rain. I am not sure if the judging standards have changed since there are so many more high dollar restorations out there now but I would assume so. My point is that you can compete with the high dollar restorations if you do your homework. I consider my car a nice clean driver (with correct parts ) I see a lot of nice restorations out there but many of them I can see things wrong by just looking at the photos and if they are that obvious to me a judge is surely going to see it. As for publishing judging rules, I think that would be nearly impossible. I think the responsibility falls on the owner of the car to educate them selves as to what is correct and then not be surprised when you lose points for that non-correct item. I received a bronze award at the 2001 BCA nationals and used that judging sheet to see where I lost points. I fixed those areas over time and it paid off at the next meet I went to be judged at. They even deducted points off for incorrect rims but I was able to prove to them that they were factory correct and they reinstated my points which brought me up to the bronze award level. I would have scored higher in the 2005 BCA meet but I lost points due to a small tear (1/2") in the original convertible top on my car, I am not going to replace the top to get a few more points in a car show. I do not envy the job of a judge and give them all the credit they deserve for volunteering.
It’s like being a referee. Make a call someone doesn’t like and they hate you. Might even get popcorn and peanuts thrown at you.
It's a valid point, I think with decreased participation in the events they don't want to " hammer" someone gracious enough to bring their car. Ask me what it cost to bring a car to MCACN last minute, when I knew most would walk right past it to slobber on the GSX displays. I recall one year that every car but one got a gold award. That owner was about to turn over the table at the apparel tent. The kicker ? same car previously got a gold. Where we failed was getting the car in the appropriate class, bc by all accounts it was a very nice piece, just not restored. DL
What I am trying to say is that fools like myself want to be judged at a higher standard. If I am going to all the trouble to get a car as nice as it can be with time and money limits, It would be nice to see if it needs more fine tuning. Only an expert with knowledge can do that. Not trying to rock the boat but just trying to see if some of the great points of the Mustang Club of America can be used for Buicks..
IDK abut ford, but below is the MCACN vintage certification. We don't have a lift and team of judges to do this. Much less finding participants that would pay $550 to have their car "certified". As it takes several hours and they understandably compensate the judges for this level. MCACN, Vintage Legend focuses on the unrestored vehicle, and includes American brands. This program provides status, recognition, provenance and appreciation to unrestored vehicles. The certification team provides each owner with a detailed listing of our findings in a comprehensive report. Our goal is to uncover new information, share it with you and act as a repository for factory standards and processes. For our program goals and details click on the icon Vintage Legend Program Goals Our certification teams consists of judges Brett Merryman, Steve Shauger, Chris White, Roger Gibson, Jim Cunningham, Rick Campbell and incorporates other specialists based on make and model. Each core team member possesses over 30 years experience as restorers, collectors, historians and judges in the hobby. Typically we spend 3hrs on each car examining in detail every segment of your car including placing it on a lift for the underbody and suspension. The MCACN show is the perfect venue to have your vehicle certified. You will be among and exclusive group of enthusiast who participate in this new exciting event. The fee for Vintage Certification is $550 DL
The fee to judge my Boss 351 was $125.00 and it was a bargain . I was given a list of items to correct. I did not get the impression I was "beat up" . It was done by 5 judges that were all experts in their areas. It was also judged on a lift in the A/C . Very complete and honest inspection. That was done at Mid America Shelby Meet in Tulsa.. The car was judged by Ed Myer , he is one of the most knowledgeable experts on Boss cars there is. Another benefit is as Duane stated earlier, the car was verified as top tier in it's year and it's Class. It did add pedigree to the car but only because the criteria was so strict and the judges were respected..
