Plan on using the 430 big port heads off the original 68 rivi gs engine. Will leave them stock as far as valves go and hopefully not have to take anything off the surfaces. Starrett straight edge shows no light shining through at usual check points. Will use the 1973 455 block , crank , cam, lifters, push rods and rocker assemblies. They all appear to be in great shape. Journals on cam mic’d out within spec so no need for undersize bearing. Other advantage is not having to worry about break in of new a cam. As for pistons, hoping to source a set of forged pistons with 1970 specs. Hoping block dont need to be bored out more than over .030 to clean up the bores. Want to be able to run pump 92 octane without pinging. Reliability is my main concern. Hope to make a few 2000+ miles trips in it. Checked the decks on the block and they also checked out using starrett straight edge so hoping to avoid decking the block also. What do you all think? All opinions are welcomed and appreciated. This is my first v8 build. Trying to avoid as many mistakes as possible. All of my engine building experience is in vintage harley engines i.e. panheads and shovelheads. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
You should consider planning to deck the block to get yourself the proper piston height, quench, CR, etc.. I like the TA 1621A pistons for what you're trying to do, but you really need to determine what you want for static and dynamic compression, and how youre gonna get there, meaning what combination of head CC, gasket and piston height, and what dynamic compression the stock cam is going to give you depending on where you degree the cam in at. With what youre working with, it would be easy to make an engine that actually causes detonation if youre not careful.
I agree with Rhett regarding matching your cam to your compression ratio. Also, you'll want to do the oil mods. See below link: https://www.diyauto.com/manufacture...55-block-id-prep-and-oiling-mods-by-jim-weise
^^^^ Thank you VERY MUCH for that information. EXACTLY the kind of info i am seeking. I now know that i got some learning to do as well as data gathering as to cam specs and where the piston sits in the bore. Looks like i am going to have to do a partial reassembly to get those numbers. Glad i did not remove either the cam or main bearings. Thinking i need to get a new timing chain set being the original has alot of slop. I will be doing the oil mods also . Thanks again for the help!
Sink as much money as you can into getting the short block built strong 100% right. You can then down the road easily swap the heads over in a afternoon to more completely rebuilt stockers or higher power potential ported ones. In terms of running the heads you have due to the age unless they where of extremely low mileage there gonna need some work. I can't see how your going to get away without a valve job at minimum, but with that being said the most important thing is that they have good valve stem oil control. The last thing you want to do to a new build is carbon it up, which will instantly accelerate ware.
Call Jim Weise and get a set of custom pistons with the correct compression height to get you to Zero deck. You can also select the size of the valve reliefs/dish to get you the SCR you want.
If you’re replacing your timing chain, go with a double roller timing chain. The more keyways the better, IMO. It will give you more flexibility when degreeing the cam. Also, it’s my understanding that there are clearance issues with a double roller and the mechanical fuel pump. So if you’re not running an electric fuel pump you’ll want to do a search on this forum of what you need to do to resolve the clearance issues. (I just remember reading about it in here.) TA Performance is a good source for parts.
Fuel pump clearance to double row timing chain when using stock timing cover: https://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/fuel-pump-mod.143267/ An alternative (and a very good investment) is TA's aftermarket timing cover, which features the slight relocation of the pump in its design, no mods needed. Devon
430 heads are prone to cracking in the valve spring pad area so I would highly recommend getting them checked out. The straight edge on the the heads and block just shows you they are flat and not necessarily true.I would at least have both surfaced trued up. Chris
I plan on having block sonic tested and the heads magna-fluxed and hopefully if they check out, a valve job, but not going with the oversize stage 1 valves.I read a post by someone on here that stated that you get good results by cleaning the bowl area of rough edges and some blending of the seats to the bowl. I got the impression that a novice like myself can handle that MAYBE. Being I am retired on a fixed income and helping my grand daughter through college, I am trying to save as much money as possible. I will not cut corners on things that are necessary to make a “strong 100% right” block for longevity and reliability. This car will not be driven hard, raced, nor will i be burning rubber on it . Just want to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic and have enough power to pass a car when need be. Will rarely if ever see rpms over 4000. I drive like the old man that I am. No rush to get anywhere, its about the journey to me and taking in all the beauty our wonderful country has to offer. Appreciate you all !
1. Aftermarket "replacement" pistons are nearly always sabotaged with low compression height. Get your pistons from Jim, so that you'd take the minimum from the block to get properly-tight piston-to-head clearance. Yes, those pistons will cost money. 2. Square-decking the block will get the head-gasket surfaces true to the crank centerline. GM was not good about this to begin with, and the blocks didn't get any better as they aged and "settled". If you buy the right pistons, you wouldn't need to zero-deck the block (which is square-decking plus a lot more material removed.) 3. GM built millions of engines without using a torque-plate during honing. They also called 800 miles to a quart of oil on a new-under-warranty engine "normal". Make sure the block is honed with a torque-plate, with honing grit and process suitable for the ring package you're using. If no torque plate is available, even regular bolts torqued onto spacers or a stack of washers so that the thread depth is the same as the head bolts will have, is better than nothing. 4. I'd fully expect the rocker arms to be worn beyond salvaging. Maybe the rocker shafts, too. Melling makes thick-wall rocker shafts complete with rocker arms and buttons. 5. There's endless debate on whether to install hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in Buick (or any other) cylinder head. The existing valve seats have likely work-hardened; if they're in reasonable condition DON'T grind them. The downside is that if the guides are worn (likely) then after the guides are repaired, you'll be grinding away the work-hardened layer of the valve seat; and then it's a crapshoot whether you'll have valve seat recession. Heavy loads make seat recession more likely, but there's no assurance with non-hardened seats. 6. Did you keep those lifters IN ORDER, so they go back onto the same cam lobe they came off of? Are the lifters STILL CONVEX on the bottom? IF (big IF) you know where each one goes, and the bottoms aren't wiped-out, take each lifter apart ONE AT A TIME for cleaning. DO NOT mix parts from one lifter to another. Hydraulic lifters are like little oil filters--the oil passage into them is big, the oil passage out of them is microscopic. Sludge gets in, can't get out. 7. Degree the cam. Eliminates problems with improperly-marked/improperly-manufactured timing sets; and operator error. If there's problems later, you'll know the cam is installed properly. 8. Everyone buys double-roller timing sets. The cheap ones are junk. The good ones are expensive. Not all the expensive ones are good, though. The Pontiac gang is going back to the silent-link chains claiming that--with iron gears NOT nylon-coated--they last longer than double-roller chains. Not sure where I stand on that, except to say that the Toronado and ElDorado put about a thousand foot-pounds of torque through a bigass silent-link chain between the torque converter and the rest of the Turbo-Hydramatic 425 transmission. 9. Clean EVERYTHING, mineral spirits first, then hot water/laundry detergent, and when you think it's clean enough...do it again. Run brushes through ALL the oil passages including the drillings on the crankshaft, block, etc.
Use the 68 rockers, they are much better. If you are going to mill the heads or block then you will need to look at push rods and double check the length and maybe order some new ones. You can try to lap the valves at home and see if you even need to mess with a valve job. If not then you can sand the heads and block at home to double check for flatness. Get a stone hone for the cylinders, do bearings, rings, and gaskets and put it back together. I would hot tank the block heads and intake, it's cheap and will clean better than you can.
Will the 68 rocker work with the 73 rod oiling system? If so yes i agree they are better and will definitely use them.They appeared to be in good condition . Will refer to factory manual for specs on the rocker arm assemblys. If they dont check out will get new ones. Yes i did make sure not to mix parts of the valve train assembly all the way from the push rods down to the lifters and seperated by cylinder and intake / exhaust. I did not check the lifter surface to see if they were still convex. Will do first thing tomorrow. Looking at them visually and they looked almost new to my untrained eye. The cam lobes are all in what i would consider in very good condition. No wear beyond hardened surface , no pits, grooves or scratches. To be clear I am referring to the 455 parts although did the same with the 430 valve train parts but with the 430 parts i seperated from the valve spring keepers down to the lifters. I did not dis assemble the 455 heads.
Assumes they're not worn-out. Pushrod length needs to be verified. Pushrods are the LAST thing you buy to complete a long-block, since there's so many variables to be accounted for. Wild Guess with no evidence: Given proper piston compression height, square-decking the block won't remove enough material to require different pushrods. I've seen OEM hydraulic lifters with more than a quarter-inch of plunger travel. But maybe different pushrods are needed to account for the different rocker arm pushrod-socket size if the ones he has aren't usable. IF (big IF) the guides aren't wiped, that is what I'd do. For fook's sake, do not buy the ultra-coarse "valve grinding compound" stocked in most auto-parts houses. The stuff is like playground sand in a grease- or water-based carrier. I bought a can of Clover 400 grit; and if I had it to do again, I'd have gone more fine than that--600, or 800 grit, maybe. No idea how that's gonna work. Assumes the cylinders are straight and round. If they are, I'd be using a 320-grit dingleberry brush. If they aren't...MAYBE a rigid hone, professionally-done, but more likely rebore then professional hone with torque plate or at least tight bolts. "Hot tanks" are a thing of the past. Nowadays, it'll more likely be a degreasing oven/shot blaster; or maybe a jet-wash cabinet. But, yes, getting parts cleaned at the machine shop is the first step. Don't trust the machine shop to brush-out the oil passages, or to get all the grit out of the crankshaft oil passages. I do not allow the machine shop to install core plugs, threaded plugs, cam bearings, because I want to verify that the block passages are CLEAN.
Schurkey, brings some valid points, like valve guides and worn out rockers. There are some you tube videos of sanding deck and head surfaces. I know uncle Tony's garage has done it. You need a flat surface to put sand paper on and a weight then you are just moving it back and forth until it fully cleans up. A dingle ball hone doesn't show if they are out of round. A straight stone hone will show an out of round cylinder by not sanding an area where it is not touching. Even with a dial bore gauge you would need to take a hundred readings to get what you could see by honing with a stone hone. At that point you can reevaluate if further honing is needed or professional help is required. I know 68 rockers can be used on 73 heads but not sure if any mods are needed or what the parts combination is. That is the setup my cousin had in the Stage 1 in my avatar and the setup I was going to build for mine, still have the 455 and rockers. I was going to build mine like yours with little machine shop intervention, as I described.
you can use 67-69 rockers on 73 heads, but you should use a hybrid oil though pushrod with a 5/16 tip at the lifter, and a 3/8 tip at the rocker. I've used 5/16 tips at the rocker but its really not ideal at all.
OK. I've "machined" various items (oil pump housings/covers, and TBI injector covers, for example) using a piece of glass as a flat backing, and sandpaper. It's the flat backing that's going to be...interesting...given the amount of weight it's got to hold without sagging, and the likelyhood of tearing the sandpaper under that much weight. My favorite machine shop has essentially a motor-powered variation of this. For non-critical applications, parts are dropped onto a glorified (and EXPENSIVE) gigantic upside-down "belt sander" which does a decent but not exceptional job of getting stuff "flat" but has no way to measure the amount of material removed. You're talking about an expensive RIGID hone. Different from a cheap 'n' crappy "stone" hone with spring fingers applying pressure to the stones. THIS, at $166 on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-15000-Engine-Cylinder-Hone/dp/B000GKIE4S/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1HMY0OVONWQ6W Not this, at $22 on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/8milelake-En...s/dp/B06WVRS9MM/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1HMY0OVONWQ6W A rigid hone will need a suitably high-torque, low-RPM drill to turn it, and that won't be cheap either. Together, they will, as you said, do a fine job of pointing-out low spots in the cylinder. The cylinder-wall finish will be too rough to use as-is; you'd need finer-grit stones to achieve final smoothness. The first--and often the only--test you need to make to determine cylinder wear, is to look at the ridge at the top of the bore. MOST of the time, MOST of the cylinder wear is evident at the bellmouth on the upper part of the piston ring travel. If the cylinder has a ridge...it's probably going to get bored. A ridge that stands proud of the bellmouth by only a mere .002, means the cylinder taper is .004, and that's double what I'd accept on a budget build. It's four times what Chevy was specifying as the "service limit" back in the 1990s. The 350 I built for an '88 K1500 used a Vortec short-block of unknown mileage. Cylinder taper was about .0015; beyond the official "service limit" but still adequate for re-use in this application. I could still see the original honing marks in the cylinder below the taper--so the cylinder wasn't oval, or worn anywhere but the top of ring travel. Yeah, it got dingeberry-brushed and is doing fine. Dingleberry example: https://www.amazon.com/114MM-Silico...e/dp/B005BG4X60/ref=sr_1_17?crid=E3LQ3M74U8N1
On a head to sand it flat you would flip the head and stick the sand paper to the glass and put some weight on the glass like a lawn mower battery and just move the glass and battery back and forth making sure the sand paper goes off both sides as you sand. You don't push down you just move back and forth, the battery is the down force and it is even.
Greetings all ! Since my last post Ive been learning as much as I can on how to build a strong engine. I now have an understanding of the importance of matching the right parts to each other. I understand why deck height is so important to get it right. When the time comes I will be calling Mr. Jim Weise for help in procuring a set of pistons and possibly rods so as to get to the proper deck height and compression with a minimal amount of machining of the deck surfaces. I installed the old crank, cam, timing chain assembly and pistons 1,2,7,and 8. The first measurement I took is deck height. It turns out the pistons are .054 in the hole. The old gasket was .050 compressed for a total of .104 in the hole. I hope to correct that with longer rods and possibly a lower pin height on the pistons. I plan on some machining of both the block and head surfaces. Trying to keep it at a minimum so its mainly to square everything up. If a bit more is required to get to the desired deck height I will do it. Currently, I am attempting to degree the cam. I am having trouble getting an accurate dimension of the intake lobe center line. I have a degree wheel set up on the crank and a dial indicator with a fixture I bought from summit that goes into the lifter bore on which the dial indicator sits on top of. The method I am using to get the intake center line is starting at .050 on one side, rotating clockwise to the other side of the lobe to .050. Adding the two numbers that register on the degree wheel at those points then divide by 2. Example; at .050 on the front side I get 100* on the wheel. On the back side at .050 I get 100* on the wheel. Theoretically that would give me a center line angle of 100* . When I roll the crank to 100* I am .010 from maximum lobe height. Should the lobe centerline angle be the highest point of the intake lobe ? Trying my hardest to get this right. Thanks for the help
Yes. Use 0.050" down from the top of the lobe, not 50 up from the base circle. Find the point of maximum lift, subtract 50 thou from that, go either side of the max. That will give you the centerline of maximum lift. Not necessarily the theoretical lobe centerline but that's a whole nother topic of discussion lol
