401 question-valve knock?aluminum in pan- ideas?

whats up guys- got a 62 electra- stock 401-- was out a few nights ago and had a loud knock that came up out of the blue- shut it down- towed it home--
thought it was valve train- found a faulty lifter and rocker arm- replaced lifters, pushrods, rockers-- buttoned back up and same knock noise-- didn't sound like rod - head gasket is good, compressions good, valvetrain seems ok--

there are some small pieces of aluminum in several of the intake ports- thought it might be chunks of the casting on the stock carb base that made its way in, but when I drained the oil (which did manage to fill with some water from somewhere over the last few days) I found a couple decent size chunks of aluminum- will check to see if its a stock timing gear that got chewed, but cant seem to figure what other aluminum parts could have come apart inside and if its related, how they would have made it up into the intake...

car will run but with a very consistent "tac tac tac" noise

I didn't see any steel in the pan- hoping that bottom half is ok-- if any of you guys have any ideas or experienced anything like this, it would be greatly appreciated

thanks

Paul

 

Paul, I would bet the farm that you have had a piston to bust.... dont run it at all for any reason.... look at the spark plugs and determine which side it is on and pull the head... and look.... you are going to find a busted piston....

 

Thanks Doc- I will check them all and see what I come up with

Happy Thanksgiving

 

Have fun! I just put my heads back on. Good oppertunity to repaint!

 

Looks like its #5 cylinder-- oil and water on plug- at least the electrode isnt all chewed up! time to pull the head -- thanks for input

Paul

 

now that you have found that out,,, pull the engine, [that is the easiest way] and get it completely torn down and VERY CLOSELY inspect the oil gallery that runs under the cam for damage,,, if that is damaged the block is toast, if not then the block can be sleeved, most likely, and used again with no problems...
The water in the cyl indicates that the wrist pin has knocked a hole in the cyl wall somewhere....btw drain the cooling system and the oil now, dont wait , the internal parts will rust and corrode if you dont....

 

Got the head off last night- piston didn't grenade from the topside at least, but is starting to come apart-- cylinder wall smooth as butter and looks good aside from the HUGE STRESS CRACK runnin vertically down the side!!

(why don't they have one of those little smilies punchin himself straight in the face?)

Anyway- guess this block is pretty much trash... I must have blown the bottom half out of that piston but I'm not sure how the cylinder wall would give out like that

RIP Nellie the Nailhead- August, 1962- November, 2009

She was good motor- never gave me any trouble...

thanks for your help doc

 

Welllllll, What usually happens is the piston busts and then the wrist pin knocks a hole in the cyl wall... or hammers 4 trails up and down the cyl walls wreaking havoc....if not shut down immediatly the whole thing grenades...
Like I said before, you may be able to save that block by sleeving the cyl... even if you choose not to, keep it , someone else may want to sleeve it....I have built several that were sleeved and never had a problem....

 

Thanks Doc-

will start doin some homework to figure out the best route- You guys know what motors would be a direct swap? would I need to stick with 401 from 61-62 to match dynaflow trans, etc? my car is all stock with AC-

Paul

 

63 will fit also as this was the last year for the Dynaflow. I'm sure there is a 425 out there with your name on it. :beer

Look up Russ Martin out there on the left coast, he knows these Nails as good as ANYONE!

Russ has a standard bore 401 block on ebay. He goes by Buickrodder.

 

Yep ,,,, any 401 or 425 will work.....from 1959 to 1966... you would have to use a crank from 59 to 63 to work with your dyna... but if you can score a th 400 or a switch pitch th 400 [short tail shaft] you can make them work also.... from 63 on earlier the flex plate is triangular and the torque converter is different and the starter is different [ long nose starter], 1964 on up uses a full circular flex plate that has the ring gear welded to it and the starter is a short nose starter....In the past i did make a 59 crank from a 401 work with a th 400 trans by machining the center hole out bigger to fit the 59 crank flange...raced it till the world looked level and never had a problem...

 

Yup

Just find a good used '59-63' 401 or '63 425. Paint er, drop er in, and call er good. Drive and enjoy, no fuss, no muss, no BS!


As much as I hate to suggest this, sometimes it just has to be done:
Here ya go man: http://www.teambuick.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=4284

This car could donate the engine and probably any other parts you may need. Sell the remaining on ebaY and make some money.

 

Alex, is on to something, let me clarify my statement, any nailhead can be made to work,,, it just depends on how much of a case of the bull headed stubborns that a man gets... I tend to get the bhs real bad.... :laugh: :laugh: personally, if I were in a situation where my engine was toast it would be a ''golden opportunity'' to install a 425 and i would do what ever was neccessary to do it....:Brow: :Brow:

 

Paul, to keep the Dynaflow, your going to have to find a 401/425 from '63 or earlier. Personally, I'd swap a ST400 in at the same time. It's a much better trans than the Dynaflow. I'm in the process of doing this swap as we speak.

 

Cameo-
I definitely wouldn't mind gettin rid of this dynaflow-- what has been involved so far with that swap? anything unexpected or pretty straightforward? I know you can make anything work but I'd rather not get caught up with a drawn out process-- wish I had more time, but at the moment, its tight

I'm thinking a donor car would be the way to go if I can find one with a good drivetrain and part the rest out like 64 suggested-

did a bit of callin around Doc, to try and figure out some costs, and couldnt find anyone off hand who could sleeve that block

I appreciate the ideas- thanks again for the help

Paul

 

Basically, you'd need a crank bushing adapter from Russ Martin, a flexplate, a '64-'66 starter, and the ST400 itself w/converter. I've been told that the factory Dynaflow crossmember can be modified to work, however I've also been told that a crossmember from a '64 fullsize car will just bolt in place. I'm not sure if the driveshaft will have to be shortened or not, but I'm pretty sure the front yoke will need to be changed out.

Also, if your going the ST400 route, be sure to get a '65-'66 model as the '64 is a one year odd ball.

As soon as I get back in-town from my working vacation I'm going to be picking up the flywheel/starter/trans/converter from a local board member (thanks Dan :beer ). I'm hoping to start working on everything by the second week of December. Hopefully I can make some progress by the 1st of the year.

I'd really consider the swap since you have to yank the motor anyways. I wasn't planning on doing mine this soon, however I totally blew the front seal out on my Dynaflow, so now is as good a time as any.

 

Don't waste time screwing around swapping transmissions. The dynaflow is a good, beefy, solid transmission. Wouldn't you rather be driving your car? And why lessen the value of your car???????o No:

 

Well- I found a 64 Rivi with a 425 and the ST400 complete- unfortunately its the "oddball" tranny but its solid-- I have a wildcat console in my car for my air ride switches -think I'm going to switch over to console rather than column shift- looks like the center pick up sump will fit right in between the front crossmember and swaybar and most if not all of my factory brackets (power steering pump, generator, compressor) will bolt right up-

deal with the driveshaft and yoke when I get there but just want to check and see if you guys can think of anything unexpected I may run into with this swap?

Also, may have a posi riviera rear end and disk brake kit for sale shortly here in So Cal if anyone is interested

Paul

 

It's not a bad trans, just not as good as the '65 and '66 units. It doesn't have switch pitch, and only has a 2nd gear hold down (you cant manually hold the car in 1st gear). I'd definitely switch over to console shift while your at it. I'm pretty sure any aftermarket shifter for the Turbo 400 will work. I was contemplating running the Hurst Pro Matic 2. All the factory accesories should bolt right up as well.

Like I said, I'm not sure if the driveshaft will have to be shortened, but I'm 99% sure the front yoke will need to be changed.

The only other things that will need to be figured out are the trans crossmember, and your going to have to re-route the emergency brake cable.

Also, as far as that posi rear, you can use that in your '62, but you have your 33 spline axles re-splined to 30 spline.