how much horsepower can you get out of a 58 buick with keeping the nastalgic feel of it. no computers, etc. just raw true power. how much could someone get out of a nailhead 364?
The 364 will accept most of the same aftermarket stuff as a 401-425. The heads, cams, etc... interchange. With a factory rating of 300hp for the 4bbl, 10.2:1cr motor -vs- the 401" with the same rated at 325hp. I think a 375-400hp and 425-475lb/ft should be realistic. Head work, camshaft, and likely Roller rockers should do you best. A modified factory four barrel intake or possibly a Weiand 2x4 my be your best choice for carburated intakes. Intakes DO NOT interchange with 401-425 unless it is an early injection or 6x2 intake where the left and right banks are not tied together-meaning that the head spacing is different on 364-401/425. The heads are the same so the port size is also.(I hope that makes sense.)
58 land barge Yup, Joe is right on, the only thing that I would add is my list of cheap tricks and the fact that you can drop in a 401 or 425. But the main thing that you are going to be fighting is the massive weight. Lighten it up as much as possible. Lower gear in the diff. may be difficult to do as you have an enclosed drive shaft. [I think]
i am that nastalgic hot rodder. bigger, heaver cars with big, heavy, powerful engines is the way for me. i am putting a 59 caddy dual posi rear end under her. but keeping the triple turbine dinapitch trans. becuase i heard they didnt shift they just switched the pitch of the gears, and that they could take just about any kind of power you can put in front of them i was told. and i want to get around 400 hp out of my nailhead. i am buying a 60 buick 2 door hardtop le sabre for parts for my 58 buick. i want the A/C unit, power brakes, and power steering unit, cadillac rear end, and the front spindles off of it. i will sell the car itself though (the 60 buick 2 door hardtop) it will be the body, frame and mabe the engine and trany. dont know if it has a 401 or a 364 in it. if it has a 401 im taking it out and droping power in it and putting it in my 58. so if anyone is interested in the car i could soon (month) get some photos of the old girl.
Extrude honing the cylinder heads and using oversized stainless valves works well to get more air out of them. They need as much air as they can get. Using roller rockers will get the most out of the camshaft. Offenhauser dual 4 bbl intake is still available from TA Performance. 400 hp and still pump gas/street drivable will be extremely hard to do, normally aspirated. You would be better off with a 425 or a 401 bored to 425 for the extra cubes. The bigger the bore the better. Only problem is your generation car does not accept a 401 or 425 well. the deck height of the 401/425 is more, which puts the heads in a different position and will lay the exhaust manifolds on the frame rails. I don't think there is even enough room to make custom headers. Other things to consider is if you are able to get a 401/425 in there, it has to have a dynaflow configured crankshaft, i.e. `63 and earlier. 401's that can be bored to 425 bore are generally `63 and later. For reference: 364 bore = 4.250, 401 bore = 4.1875, 425 bore = 4.3125
Dave, then what do you think would be the better way to go to make h.p. in a nailhead. Stoker or supercharge? Tim
More HP (& TQ) - supercharge Torque only - stroker, HP won't increase much if any Unfortunately the NH's are deficient in cylinder head flow. What ever you can do to get more air in and out will make the HP.
nail head myth I love to take advantage of the 'nail head myth. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: The myth is, that it is hopless to try to build up a nail head 'because the valves are too small' I have heard this a blue million times. the reality is a nail heads valves are not that much smaller than other v8 engines but only slightly, Plus, Buick knew this and put hotter cams in them to compensate. In races where we were all in the same class, my nail heads could/can hold thier own with any body given proper gears ect. This is what makes them so great, every body believes the myth, not the facts. then they get their doors blown off by a car that 'isnt supposed to run that good'. My 401 skylark has beaten many 396 [actually 400] Chebbys, 440 chryslers,427 fords and yes some sacred 426 hemis. A well built nail head car aint no slouch in thier class.
I am not a nailhead hater, the best running Buick engine I ever had was a 401. However, the question on this thread was 400 hp from a 364. You have to do a slew of things to get 400 hp from a 425, and still try to keep it streetable. The reason Buick went with the hotter cams, is that was their only option to keep up with the others. Facts are, when you have ported heads that only flow 230 cfm and you have valves that are smaller than a small block or even a V6. Our biggest valve we can fit in the NH is still 1.940" intake and a 1.550 exhaust, you just don't have the airflow to make bigger hp or for that matter, additional torque. The 425 has the same bore as a 455, just less stroke. The 455 Stage 1 came with 2.125 intake and 1.750 exhaust which was part of a 400 hp package (advertised as less: 360 hp, but re-factored by NHRA at 410 hp). Now a days we can put 2.260 intake valves in our aftermarket heads and port them to nearly 400 cfm and end up with pump gas combos of over 550 hp and torque. Like I mentioned about the valve sizes in relationship to the small block and V6. A fully ported 350 head can get close to 300 cfm OUR V6's are 260+, compared to the 230 cfm of the NH, that you are asking to feed 425+ cid, it just is deficient. The reason I mention this is that the valves are not the whole problem, the runner design is the biggest detractor. Usually after these discussions, people ask why an aluminum head is not being made for the NH. Unfortunately, the head design is a dead end. Pushrods that come up on the exhaust side and intake runners that are parrellel to the ground, just don't make for a good flowing combination. P.S. If you want 400 HP from 364 cid get your hands on a new LS2 (6.0 Litre) they come from the factory with 400 hp and can be 500+ daily drivable. See my sig for the `05 GTO! It's all in the heads and it only has a 4" bore.
Dave, I am not looking to argue or question your knowledge. I am just trying to give some helpfull info. So please take no offense to this. As far as using stainless valves, they will not by themselves give any performance gain, infact being slightly heavier they 'could' take more hp to move-ever so slight. Back-cutting the valves (stock or stainless) will help air flow slightly though. The 'roller rockers' available right now have an increased ratio which can/should help performance as they will make a 'smaller cam' act like a 'bigger cam' with no other modifications. Using smaller stem'ed valves (ie: Chevy) will give a slight airflow improvement due to slightly less restriction. 3/8" vs 5/16". Other mods to the heads should help as well. I know they will not flow like a late model SBC but they should be capable of decent power. Using the torque correctly is also important. As far as not being able to 'fit' headers, I don't think I have ever seen a car that could not have headers made for it. My 55 Special originally had a 264" in it and when I put a 401" in it the same headers literally were up against the steering column. I mean they had to be 'clearanced' just to fit in the car. Once I built a set, all the clearance issues were gone. I know that not everyone has the time to build their own headers but I am sure a set could be made that would fit the chassis, steering, etc... I am not sure I would be looking to use a Dynaflo if I were looking for heavy performance. I would recommend going with a 64-66 SP/Th400 out of a Buick. These bolt directly to the 364" block and require minimum modifications to get the flexplate and starter to work. (plus an adapter/bushing for the torque convertor hub.) As far as using a SB2 style motor...yeah they make a LOT of power for the displacement but are obviously not the build style Zman is after. Most of us still running Nailheads are in the same boat. I love Chevy motors but I don't want one in my 55 Special, not even the 671-supercharged 468" BBC that is sitting idle in my pops barn. The 327 in my wife 54 Chevy runs great and is an oustanding motor. I love is in her CHEVY. Anyhow, headwork-camshaft-sensible modifications should get the Zman close to what he wants. If Zman has any other questions, please pm me.
The LS2 comment was more of a joke, at the last minute I remembered they were 364 cid and 400 hp. Which was the original question. That engine would definately be out of place for the application that this discussion is for. Plus I don't sell any parts for those! There is no reason that posts like this should get into arguments, many facts come out and everyone benefits. I just don't want to mislead anyone in thinking they can get tons of HP from the NH, this engine is a great engine for all around power and reliability, but it has some major design restrictions that impair it from making "modern, high, horsepower". I will just add some info to Dual Quads post. TA Performance's stainless valves do flow considerably better than a stock valve and are lighter in weight. Our valves are made to our spec and are not what anyone else has... there is a difference. Our valves are larger in face diameter for more surface area (flow). The stem at the backside of the valve is reduced in diameter so it is less than 3/8" O.D. where it opens into the chamber, again to increase flow, this also reduces the weight. By keeping the 3/8" guide but reducing the stem diameter behind the face, we get the best of both worlds, we have the restriction of a smaller stem valve such as an 11/32 or 5/16, while at the same time being able to use stock retainer, keeper and spring combinations, which are very important on the NH. It would be a nightmare to try and put "Chevy" valve train parts on the NH because of the odd spring configuration. Our valves are also swirl polished and the exhaust stems are tapered, which compensates for thermal expansion. Another plus for the NH because they have been known to stick valves. We also are the only ones that have plug-n-play valve springs for high lift cams. The roller rockers will be one of the biggest gains. Again, because of the odd layout of the pushrod coming up on the outboard and actuating the rocker backwards puts the rocker over center. The factory rockers actually lose ratio as lift increases. The roller rockers have better ratios to begin with and are engineered better resulting in less ratio loss so you get full lift of the cam. TA's roller rockers ARE different than the others that are out there. We just have been waiting 2+ years for them to get done, which sucks worse for us than for you guys. I have not been directly involved with a 401/425 transplant into a 50's Buick, but I've worked with about 100 people undertaking such a job. My understanding is the exhaust manifolds of the 401/425 end up resting on the frame. Transplanting a TH400 in one requires the removal of the torque tube, which in turn requires changing the rear end. Most people interested in doing such swaps, just change the entire frame. By using a frame from a 1978 to 1988 "B" body GM car (some have used A-body frames) you instantly update the car for the better. Now you have modern brakes, steering and suspension, a frame that will accomodate any engine, trans, rear end and exhaust. Plus the frame is easy to shorten or lengthen as needed and the width is already correct. Mounting the body to the frame is just a little more work than just bolting it in, but is well worth it. Changing the frame sounds like a big job, but it is actually quite easy and economical and it solves multiple problems/issues at one time.
Gotta love old hot rodders Dang, Dave, That is just what I love about this site and the people that visit here. :TU: When you get a bunch of old street rats together there is bound to be lively conversation and a ton of enginuity. i would have not thought of changing the frames on the cars in question. makes a lot of sense. :Brow: Great ideas. :Brow: Actually all of us are right on about the different aspects of rodding. We just need to not get all hot and bothered about it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
