Hi.I have just dropped my motor off to the engine rebuilder and as they havent done a 364 nailhead before(not too many round here) what would be the best technical information to give him.I have read the 'nailing down the nailhead' article and a couple of posts but was wondering if there is anything else I could print out for him.The motor is being rebuilt fairly standard to go back in the cabalerro. I guess the main thing is the heads. Dont put hardened seats in?Any specific articles(or useful tips) would be great. Thanks, rob.
Hi Rob I love your wagon, it will be a fantastic project. Great to see the Buicks multiplying down this part of the world. I have done quite a bit of research and have lots of links saved, not all of it will be relevant to your car though. I will sort through what I have and send you some information. There is trucloads of info on all sorts of websites and lots of great people here at V8 Buick. A friend of mine in Napier has a 58 Special Riviera, a great car that people just cannot believe when they see it driving or parked. Russ Martins articles are a great start for any engine builder, and do a search for telriv and ahhh65riv, they will both have posts on engine rebuild info. Webrodder have an excellent article as well http://www.webrodder.com/index.php?page=showStories&search=nailhead and this http://www.buickstreet.com/nailhead-blueprinting/ Ross
I was about to suggest both Russ and Tom. Either one is incredibly knowledgable on Nailheads. Both are willing to talk on the phone with you (be aware of the time difference). If you have need for any information and even hard-to-find parts, they will be happy to help you.
Rob PM sent regarding links. http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=115156 this is the link to Eriks engine rebuild. It also mentions hardblocking (page 2 #28) the engine to prevent ring seal problems. Now is the ideal time for this. Russ Martins article you have mentions cam bearings and crankshaft damper bolt torque, these are critical points to take note of. Any queries just ask, and as John mentioned Tom and others here are more than happy to help. Ross
Great, thanks for the replies. I hope this helps him to do a good job. He is well respected around here but as he said, there is always something new to learn.
The Nailheads are basicly just like any other GM engine... but,,,,the difference is in the details...All manufacturers will take a engine just so far with refinements... then we have to take that engine and take it further... and like I said the difference is in the details.... First,,, basicly, there are 2 different kinds of engines... street/strip and all out race.... which kind do you want to build....? With a Buick engine, the best way to build it , is to build it to exact stock Buick clearances, then gently break it in for 1000 miles before any performance driving. That way it will live... but any engine is no good if it fails, no matter how much trick stuff has been done to it for however much money..... Now how is a nailhead different,,, the short block is basicly the same as a Pontiac/olds/chevy/ engine...of that era... the only difference is that the valves are inside of the heads instead of the outside... and a lot of mechanics/machinist get all shook up over it.... Like any engine that has replaceable valve guides , the guides need to be replaced BEFORE the valves are ground to make sure the seats are cut right... and talking about valve seats, the correct way to ''raise'' a sunken valve is to cut the pocket out wider,with a 60 deg. stone to raise the shoulder enough to cut the new 45 into the seat,, that way the valve is not Sunk down into the head...NEVER do or allow a machinest to take a stone and reverse it, and grind down to narrow a valve seat... it severely restricts the flow when that is done....you need a good 3 angle valve job for street/strip engines and 5 angle for strip only..... If you decide to port your own heads, just blend and smooth out the rough, dont try to ''hog out'' the ports... and port match them to the gaskets... I like to just mill enough off the heads to clean them up, no more.... same way with boreing the cylinders, and decking the block , that makes the engine last longer....and never, if you can possibly avoid it , line bore the main bearing saddles... when that is done , it moves the crank closer to the cam and the slack in the timing chain cannot be taken out....I never do it.... I use moly grease, not the runny stuff that will drain off , given time..... the grease stays for days/weeks/months and will not disappear... put it on the cam/lifters/valve stems/ rocker arms, ect.... rod out the radiator, install a new one, what ever it takes to insure that the new engine has a good cooling system that you can depend on.... also rebuild/replace the starter,,, if you dont the tired old starter will fail shortly after putting the new engine in the car, due to the increased compression that it has to overcome.... In a perfect world, a block should be prepped and decked, then the cyls bored, that way the cyls will be exactly 90 deg. to the centerline of the crank...but with core shift, you need to check the block very , very carefully before doing this.... retap and clean all the bolt holes,, clean the engine good enough that you could eat out of it... My famous quote, ''If it aint clean enough to eat out of , it aint clean enough to put together''..... Be double sure you put in zddp additive, to the oil, before you prime/start the engine up.... then change oil and filter at 500 miles,, and at 1000 miles,, installing zddp each time and at each oil and filter change there after.... Just some ideas....
...And don't let any shop try to talk you into hardened valve seats. The Nails don't need them, and if the installation is attempted, you will have about a 95% chance of needing new heads. The water jackets in the heads are very close to the valve seats.
That is right,, hard seats are a waste of time and money... nailheads dont need them.... they were originally designed to replace seats in a worn out head.... but they dont work out well in a nailhead buick engine.... and while we are talking about stuff to dont do,,,,:laugh: dont ever let any one talk you out of replacing the cam bearings on a rebuild... if you dont replace the cam bearings, the engine will have low oil pressure from the start up.....:Brow: and then get worse from there....:laugh:
Hi.That is the information I am looking for. He pointed out to me that one of the valves seems to be a touch lower. As I dont know the history of this car I am hoping that it hasnt been done before. He seems to think that maybe one of the heads has been off. When I give him the factory specs I guess he will work it out. I have a repair manual for a 57, the motor will be the same as the 58? Thanks,Rob
John and Doc, Talk about the valve train on a rebuild. I'm no mechanic. But, I remember knowing that setting up Buick valves after a rebuild is different than a Chevrolet. Is there an important difference, or no?
Well, the biggest difference is the side of the heads that the valves are on....:laugh: I have done a lot of valve jobs in the past and to me there is not much difference... you just follow factory specs and it works.... the biggest mistakes I see is not replacing and reaming the valve guides first, before grinding the valve seats in the head.... the mandrell that indexes the stone carrier needs a solid, true point to reference when the seats are being ground,,, if you are using the old worn out , sloppy valve guides for that reference point the seats are going to be off.... :Smarty: and when you install the new valve guides after doing that, then the seats are sho nuff gonna be off...:laugh: :laugh: Next up is failing to clean out the inside of the rocker shafts.... there is a ton of crud in there.... and the crud contaminates the oil and restricts the flow.... :Brow: Do the usual things,,, ck spring heights/pressures,,,, if they are high mileage , I replace all of them... make sure the valves are not worn on the stems, and the stems are the same length,,, ditto the valve guides,,, same height, ect.... specially if you are installing a high lift cam,,, check for interferance with the guide at max lift and coil stacking at max lift.... normal stuff....:Brow: No, to me nailheads are not that much different... just look better... but You could make the same mistakes on a Ford head, or chevy, or pontiac.....
I havent seen any,,,, I have heard that the tips used on the 67/68 year alluminum rocker arms from the 400/430's will work for a nailhead.... but I have not ever actually done that....Tom?????? Jim????? What is a source....???? o No:
Any Buick ALUMINUM rocker tip will work. 300/340/350/400/430 as well as ANY "NailHead" aluminum rockers. Tom T.
I said valves. But what my foggy memory meant to say was rockers. That's where I was trying to get to, the rockers. Take a look at Tom's post(TelRiv - post #3). http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?p=1905672#post1905672
OOOK... the nailhead rocker arms are made of forged alluminum... and for a factory item they are really good on their own... but there is also better like Toms rollers,,,it is just a matter of what you can afford.... the best way I have found to set up a bone stock set of nailhead rocker arms is to first submerg them in pure undiluted simple green for 24 hrs... then wash them off with clear water... Next I pull the plugs in the ends of the shafts, remove the cotter pins , and lay the rocker arms out on the bench in order.... and they do have a directional order so make a diagram if you cant remember it... before you tear down... then I inspect, and correct each individual piece... The stands are a close, tight fit to the shafts,,, so be carefull in removing and replace them,,, if you beat on them with a hammer very much and very hard you will distort them... they are mallable... like Tom, use a heat gun to ease removal and replacement,,, a little oil helps too.... :laugh: The biggest thing you will find wrong with stock rockers/ shafts,,, with high mileage, the shafts will wear on the bottom sides, the shafts will plug up with oil sludge, and the rocker arm ratio will often not be the advertised amount...One time, I did see a pushrod cup failure.... the only things that I have personally seen happen to factory rocker arms is the rocker arm can very rarely break,,, or the hardened tip break...I have not seen another kind of failure....and in all instances the few failures that I have seen have been on high mileage engines and /or engines that were not maintained correctly.... push rods,,,,, 2 kinds the solid early kind,, and the later hollow chromoly kind ... dont know the weight difference but the later ones are stronger... all and all the stock valve train will serve well at the rpms a Buick engine is designed to turn up to.... but it would be nice to have some of Toms rollers.....:laugh: :laugh: iceing on the cake....:Brow: they eliminate the scrub action at the tip of the valve stem... and that is about the highest friction point in a engine... because of the valve spring pressure and the small surfaces envolved.... Servicing the valve train is just good common sense, not rocket science,,,
Sorry Doc, but the rockers are NOT forged, but cast. With that being said they can/do last a long time with regular care. The valve train as is will turn 6K RPM's if everything is right. Not making any power there but it's very capable. With the light weight valve train spring pressures are very light. Like 50-60lbs. seated. Makes you wonder how they can rev so high. This makes for less wear & tear in the ENTIRE engine.
I have had a bunch of Nailheads, and have never had an out and out valvetrain failure. I have had parts wear out, I have removed working parts that I would not reinstall, but never a total failure. I think the Nailhead has a very good valve actuating system. Start with good parts correctly assembled, and the system should be trouble-free.
