Looking to help on a build for ethanol and looking at running 14:1 compression. Engine is a 1972/1973 350. First off, is that possible with just pistons? Are there any off the shelf pistons for this? Who would be a good supplier, I was thinking CP. Then a couple general questions if you don't mind(I didn't feel like searching) how much power can the factory rods/cranks handle. Thanks
The factory rods and crank can handle up to 600-700hp. Running 14:1 compression efficiently is something someone else will need to chime in with. My pistons are Wiseco's and I believe they can make a set to accomidate your needs.
First off, great to see the interest in a high compression 350! Second, using flat tops like these bellow you can get about 12:1 but above that you'll need to mill the heads to get the comp higher and you will end up with valve to piston clearance issues. You can buy a tool to add your own valve clearances in the pistons though and just ask if you need more info. BUICK OLDS CENTURY 181 3.0 BADGER PISTONS P423A.030 Over 600 hp and 6000 rpms I'd use the Hershe forged rods, thats what I'm using in my girdled all out engine....
It you go custom for the pistons, then Diamond, Weisco, and Ross are the manufacturers I know of that have made forged 350 pistons. The other option thats better than the stock rods is to use SBC rods with custom spec pistons to make up for the shorter rod. The Buick 350 rods from Hershe are a VERY nice peice and made for stock spec pistons but if your going custom pistons anyway then you could save a little $ by doign what troy did. Regarding SBC rods Troy (casper1buick) said: I've got 6.3'' small journal, small block chevy Eagle H-beam forged steel rods in my Buick 350 that I race. Saved about 100 grams weight per rod over the stock Buick rods. Very reasonablly priced at $550 for the stregnth gain. Chevy engine builders run them to 7500 rpm on a regular basis. Had to go with custom piston though,for the difference in pin height. I used Ross lightweight custom pistons and lightweight pins $780. Had to move the bearing tang on one half of rod and used buick bearings and skinny the rod up about .085 for proper side clearance. My machinest is a very reputable race engine builder,specializing in chevy(now a 350 buick) out of Rock Springs Wyoming.I've got 131 passes on it this year,shifting at 6200rpm so I'm pretty convinced. Troy The piston builder Ross Racing Pistons. Job card # off the order sheet was 115793. Should help speed the process of ordering. Waited about 5 weeks. Pistons are a true flat top with 4 cc valve reliefs. Engine builder Brian Leibee with Leibee Precision Machine,Phone# 307-362-5049. Tell him Troy sent ya hill take care of ya. Troy
Thanks for the replies. Can't find any info anywhere. I am not sure if the guy is going to have the money, and this is just a possible option. I like the idea of using SBC rods though. Ok and what about head gaskets. Any place make a metal head gasket. I have run a few custom Cometic gaskets, but not for something like this. What about running a thinner HG.
There are thin (20 thou) steel shim head gaskets but they are for the 68-71 engines. We are looking at having a run of multilayer gaskets made for the 72-80 engines though I don't think they are needed since you could just use the 42 thou fel pros and mill the heads a bit more. Just be carefull about the valve clearances.
14:1, I assume you are talking about an o-ring block. TA has nice copper gaskets for this application. I have Diamond custom pistons that were cut in the last couple months. They have coated surface and skirts. You are looking at $1000 bucks for pistons and wrist pins. My set-up is only 10.8:1. I don't think you will get pistons for less than a grand. You can do this build with stock capscrew rods. But you should polish the beams, resize, balance the rod, magnaflux & x-ray, heat treat & get them shot-peend, rebushed, chamfer the oiling hole. It will cost a few bucks but less than Herche or an SBC rod solution. I have $500 into my stock rods, including the bolts. A stock crank that is true and straight should work. You can do splayed caps for an extra $100.
I'm sure he could use the flat tops above and save the $ for head porting. I could not justify spending $500 on stock rods when we now have two great options for forged rods but each to their own. Ta will not make more copper 350 gaskets for my O-ringed block so I have to go custom.
I do my own porting, and have my own flowbench, so no money will need to be spent there, although I have never done any 2v cast iron stuff before. All I do is aluminum 4v heads. My brother in law on the other hand does the cast iron stuff and I am sure can give me some pointers. How much airflow could I expect from a good porting? How big of valves could I go. So with MHG's you really think o-ring is needed? I have already told the friend that pistons will probably be at least $800 for a custom set, so $1,000 is doable. So if he were to go with the SBC forged rods, how much would the cost be to prep them for the buick crank. Man, I never new how difficult this would be to get parts for.
Not sure of your application but nothing seals a high compression motor better than copper. And if you have copper, you need to o-ring. They sure don't last long though. Perhaps you can go with the thin steel gasket and see how it works out. I understand what you mean by lack of parts. I got spoiled with BBC and SBC motors and a plethora of parts at competitive prices. The BBB is not nearly as expensive as a SBB to make go fast because of a decent supply of parts. There are a bunch of BBB racers but not so many SBB. Pretty simple economics: No market, no parts - no parts, high prices. If I knew then what I know now, mine would have a 455... well, maybe not
the polishing of the rods can be done easily yourself. the rest would cost money. I think i spent about 1.5 hrs polishing bbb rods. and spent maybe 40 bucks on the abrasive for a 4.5" angle grinder. and they came out simmilar to mirrors it was almost a shame to shot peene them afterwards.
I just called Cometic. They can make copper gaskets anywhere from .010 to .090 for about $100 a gasket. But with copper, o-ringing is pretty much a requirement, and even after that they don't last long? This might be a deal breaker right here, I doubt he wants to replace the gaskets every so often.
not to hijack but they don't last long? I thought you can remove them and reanneal them with a torch and reuse them.
You might be right. I know people anneal and reuse coper gaskets. But I don't think it is recommended on an o-ringed block. Best to ask Cometic. We used them on our diesel fleet at work but they don't reuse them because they use get creased when they pull the heads.
I believe Troy payed about $70 to have the machine work done to make them work so he has about $620 in the rods, and about $700 for the custom ross pistons with valve reliefs. Theses engines are not that expensive when you consider how reliable they are and we can use the stock crank, block, heads, ect just need rods, pistons, and head porting and these things are MOSTERS! Head porting project with stock flow and fully ported numbers! http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=120529&highlight=heads Buick 350 head porting article with pictures: Scroll down to neer the bottom of the first page for the Large scans: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=138064&highlight=head+porting+article For the Gaskets, goodluck getting Cometic to make them for you, they have been NO HELP so far so we are going elsewhere for a similar style gasket for the 72-80 engines. If you use the 68-71 engine then use the steel shim 20 thou gasket, I would not worry about using that for a high comp build.
as for a custom mls head gasket john will do it, you'll just need to supply the bore/stroke and measurements for both heads gaskets-to-go = yes! Hi Michael, From what I have heard from customers and the grapevine I think you would be better off going with MLS gaskets, but I can make either type. Minimum order would be one pair of gaskets. Prices depend on size, thickness, and quantity ordered, but range from $100-139 per gasket. If you are still interested after hearing that I can provide you with a firm quotation if you can send me an image of the gasket with L x W dimensions and let me know what thickness you are interested in. Please do not hesitate to contact me again if you have any additional questions. Regards, John M. Baker www.gasketstogo.com
