If they did not pass the roll test, they were bad,,, old mechanics trick on engine noises,,,, use a 3 ft. piece of heater hose to listen thru... you can find noises quick... now the oil question... gotta use common sense here ,,,:laugh: you dont use thin oil down in Fla. in the summer time.... nor 40 wt. in Maine in winter.... I like 20 wt. in winter and 30wt in summer.... and use ZDDP all the time.....:grin: When I was going thru mechanics school, they said that if a engine is not clean enough to eat out of , it aint clean enough to put together.... :laugh: and that is very true.... on rocker arms you need to inspect the shafts for wear, the rocker arms shaft holes for wear, the pushrod cups,,, and the pushrod tips.... I have found more cups and tips bad than anything else,,, :Smarty: be sure to check the lifter bottoms and the cam lobes... if nothing else , for your peace of mind.... Doc
Guess you don't know if pushrods were bent when engine was assembled, or got damaged when it was first running.... Pushrods on a new build can bend if the cam has too much lift and not enough valve retainer-to-valve guide clearance, or the wrong valve stem seals were installed, causing valve opening to stop before the cam reaches full lift. Something has to give, often it's the pushrod. Valve tap is primarily due to too much clearance and insufficient lifter preload. Did the builder even check preload? Using a thicker head gasket will add more distance between lifter and rocker arm. Machining operations such as head/block milling and valve job, then using replacement parts, clearances/preload can stack up and be out of spec. The builder should have checked to be sure it was in spec. And welcome back Doc!
Ok I took the lifter out that I thought was the problem an put it beside a good one an it is slightly shorter. I also checked the rest of the lifters on that side an found one that was different in the fact that it has what looks to been machined different on the bottom part of the lifter that touches the cam, there is a perfect circle indentation but not a scuff or wear from the cam and it is still correct height as the rest of the good ones. So the caliper for the good one says 1.91 and the mellings lifter that I just got from the parts store is taller it is 1.97. I did not measure the bad one it's just shorter than both an I'm hoping is the main cause. The bad one was not scuffed and the cam lobes look good. Now my question is if I go with a whole set of these taller lifters am I messing up? Im thinking call the rebuild kit company tommorow instead an get the exact set of lifters an hope these ones will be good. No quality control out there parts are shatty shat!
You seem reluctant to get the builder that much involved in this? Not sure about the height issue, except that it may have been ground down a lot? The one with the circle in the middle may have not been ground at all? I am guessing the builder is a long way away or you have some reason for not confronting them or the builder is not responsible for this and only supplied a short block Checks must be done when screwing an engine together and (as mentioned above) that includes valve spring clearances as well as valve to piston clearances. Sounds to me that you need to replace all the lifters and maybe all the pushrods as well, and re check the valve train specifications to be sure that once you put it back together, it wont hurt itself again (assuming it wasnt already damaged?) Check and double check and smile when it purrs (or growls )
A box of new lifters made in the US aren't that expensive, and believe me, it's worth it. Nailhead lifters are flat on the bottom; - anything with a concave or a convex belongs on something else. From the sounds of things (obviously don't have the full story) it seems your builder took a few shortcuts and right about now I'd be wondering what else they did...considering what it costs to get an engine done these days, if it was me I'd probably be having a very stern talk with that shop in the company of my lawyer.
What 'builder' let's an fresh un-broken in engine out the door, subject to the customer's potential mishaps or failure? There's too many assumptions here to suggest lawyers or any accountability, as that was lost the second the OP dug into the engine. I think he may have meant 'machinist'...not builder.
I've seen a lot of so-called "vintage engine rebuilders" who've built the odd SBC and think everything else is similar. The same goes with machine shops. The common denominator here is that when it hits the fan these people are the last to acknowledge responsibility and the first to blame the customer. It comes down to being able to prove it, and that's difficult when there are a couple hundred moving pieces involved, a guy can say anything and justify it. In fact, the blame is directly proportional to the size of the cheque book; the more the customer pays to get done, the less responsibility and the more the shop can shuffle off to customer ignorance when things go wrong. Usually these are the lowballers, they feed you a line that it'll only cost a fraction of what the reputable guy down the street says he'll do it for. Invariably you get what you pay for, and if there's one thing I've learned in this hobby is that one is better off learning and doing it oneself as opposed to paying some shop in the seedy area of town. Yes, there are some reputable and decent people out there, so I'm not tarring the whole lot with the same brush. But for every decent shop there are 10 shysters who'll do shoddy slap-happy work and then blame you when it comes apart. Nature of the beast, unfortunately. So if this is what happened here, I'm not the least bit surprised.
Unfortunately...once the engine was taken apart the claims rest on the owner's shoulders. I would think that if any warranty was expected, some arrangements would have been made prior to it's coming apart. Warranty, if any is generally worked into the purchase price. The durability of any engine is always a 2 way street, as so much can happen on the owner's end that's out of control of the shop. Tear downs can definitely tell a story. It isn't too difficult to tell what happened.
From my experience in engine building i would just get set of new matched lifters and set of adjustable pushrods from TA Performance and be done with any guess-work. You can't go wrong with adjustable parts... Just my 2 cents. And welcome back Doc. Peace,
Got my new lifters in today that are made by Delphi in the U.S.A. My question is that 1lifter I can push the plunger down with my finger an 3 others give a little also,are these bad right out the box? The man I bought from is reputable with these motors his name is Russ Martin. He says he has never had these lifters fail or been sent back but I really don't want to put it all together an something be wrong that I could have prevented.Im a lil paranoyed now. The cam lobes look to be good so here we go I'm gonna try these new lifters. Oh my engine builder-machinist says that it's cheap parts an says the only way he can work on it is if I pull the whole motor back out,which wouldn't be a big deal if I had the time an of course I do my work in my driveway with limited tools but I do it, an I make sure it's done right when I do work on anything. So he tells me step by step on how to possibly fix this situation over the phone. If the problem persists then the motor will be pulled an brought to him for sure an he will go back through it an then I will have to put it all back in. Its either that or I pay someone else to work on it now an I have depleated so much money already to bring this motor back to life an keep the heart of my matching number GS true!
As far as I understand it, the lifters can be "plunged" when dry; - they only build up pressure with oil which is a viscous liquid; - meaning it "compresses" well and doesn't just melt away sort of thing. Chances are once the lifters pump up with oil they'll hold solid like they're supposed to. Insert them "dry", soak them in oil, don't pump them up, put a dollop of cam lube on the bottoms, reassemble and then carefully run up the motor. Once the pressure builds, they should be fine. Don't gun it or rev it up to get the pressure up; - all you'll end up doing in banging things up.
Ok I was told not to soak the lifters in oil by the builder an Russ, and what is pumping the lifter up? I have never installed these before so I do wanna make sure I'm doing it the right way. Guy at work said to soak them overnight in breakin oil,then I herd that was the old process for lifters an now you install them like you said but I would figure you put some kind of oil around them an zddp break in lube on the bottom of the lifters also. Oh an I got Brad Pen 30w break in oil for the car this time an I was wondering if I could run this for a while cause a friend of mine sold me a case an could not break it down to 6qts. Thanks everyone for the help!
We put the new lifters in today an so far so good No tapping anymore!!! Thanks everyone for the help! I had another question about the valve train though, how does oil get into the rocker arm assembly? I mean the rocker arms have cups with holes in them that go against the push rods that are solid push rods by the way and I don't see any way the oil gets pumped through the rocker assembly. Where is this orfice for the oil at? I took every thing apart an have not seen it. Thank you
I coat the bottom of lifters with moly grease before installing them.... Brad Penn oil should be fine,,, 30 wt. should be ok,,,, if you run in a hot climate,,,, ZDDP is always good.... Now to answer your question,,,, the oil comes up thru a drilled hole in the head that is under one of the rocker arm stands,,, a special bolt that has reduced diameter goes in that same stand to allow the oil to come by it.... then it goes into the rocker arm shaft and flows thru it to oil all the rocker arms on that assembly,,,, over time ,, there will be cold sludge that accumulates inside the shafts and it needs to be cleaned out at rebuild time or if the engine has sat a long time with out running,,, this is why it is very important that the rocker arm /shaft assembly be broken down and cleaned when you rebuild...It keeps that crud out of your new engine.... when you break the assembly down , lay the rocker arms out in order,,, they are directional,,, the tips either turn to the right or the left,,, and must go back that way ,, in the position that they were originally in....put moly grease in the cups and on the valve stem tips at re assembly....then you will get plenty of oil to the rocker arms.... if oil aint dripping out of them , you got a problem.....:Brow:
Bingo! Ok now we're talking,I saw a hole in side wall of where those bolts go for the rocker assembly. I don't think the builder put the right bolts back into this assembly. What do these bolts look like? Because the bolts that I took out an put back in the assembly looked to fit very tight an I don't see oil coming out of the rockers. This bolt is supposed to be smaller so oil pumps by it into the rocker assembly,I figure this bolt should be hollow an have a hole to let the oil into the assembly better. Does any one have a pictures of these special bolts or dimensions? Thank you
Just examine each of your rocker arm stand bolts and you should find 2,,,, one for each side of the engine,,,, that are machined to be slimmer in the centers so that oil can come up and around them to get up thru the rocker arm stand to the shaft assemblys.... and in the heads there is a small hole drilled for oil to come thru right next to the threads of the end bolt holes for the bolts that hold the rocker arm/shaft/stand assemblies to the head....you can take a piece of wire or something and feel around for it if you cant see it,,,, it is very important that the holes have oil coming up thru them for oiling the rocker arm shafts.... in a pinch you can take just an ordinary grade 8 3/8 bolt and grind a flat side on it from the tip up to the level of the top of the rocker arm shaft and that will allow the oil pump to feed 35# of oil pressure to the shafts... but if you have the correct bolts in there , the bolts will have a ''waist'' like a woman , so that oil can come past them ....:laugh:
Ok the bolts have the coke bottle type shape? Im pretty sure I don't have the right bolts, where can I get the correct rocker stand bolts? Or like ya said I can get the bolts I got machined correctly. I need this rocker assembly to oil properly. I don't see how the oil get tthese rocker arm tips either,I see where it's suppose to come out on the cups for the push rods. Thank you
