Re: Ya' don't say!?!? (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Well,,,, I did this on a jeep.... and it did not gain any mileage,,, the power stayed about the same... and it had a high speed miss that could not be tuned out.... finally took it back to a carb... back to entirely normal.... If you absolutely must go to efi,,, go to the ''wet'' systems where the injectors take the place of the carbureator....they are simpler to work with... but dont expect more power or more mileage....but do expect that working on it will be more complex.... Give me a good working carb set up any time.....conversion to efi just aint worth the hassle, time, and expense.....
Re: Ya' don't say!?!? (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Doc You forgot to tell the whole story on why EFI didn't work for you. If I remember correctly it was a verification of what was stated in post #5 of this thread Paul
Re: Ya' don't say!?!? (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Yep,,, and i might add the brain box was one of those that could not be tuned,,, or at least I could not find anybody around this little wooden axle town that could do that for me..... That said,,,, the way I look at it ,,, if I add a sensor,, that sensor can go bad,,, that adds about 5 more possibilities of trouble... and 5 things that have to be checked out.... and then there is the complex fuel system and 8 injectors.... and on and on and on..... simpler is better.....
Re: Ya' don't say!?!? (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) I have kept downgrading over the years. I went from a Gen2 L99 motor with multipoint efi down to an Olds 307 with the CCC system (computer controlled carb) down to a straight old fashioned carb. Now I'm going to swap the quadrajet for an edelbrock to make it even more simplified and easy to use. Eventually though I'm going to go in the other direction such as HEI, electric fans, 2004r trans, and eventually a home built multipoint sequential fuel injection. I find that the systems in themselves are perfectly fine. It's the way the factory wires them together that's the big issue. If you put it together yourself it's easier to know what goes where and avoid any issues down the road. Plus GM has a habit of piggybacking systems together using wire that's not the right guage. Home built systems can avoid those 2 problems if you're comfortable with figuring out how to wire things together the right way.
If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Dear V-8 Buick electronic gear-heads, Just a quick additional comment about EFI and fuel economy. The great big-block Buick wagon fuel-economy caper has a lot of components associated with it. Actually EFI is just icing on the cake and wasn't the original plan. Jim proposed a Quadra-Jet at first but decided that this was in a way "beneath the dignity" of the overall project. The car will get a hardened 200-4R tranny. It will have stage-2 cylinder heads, exhaust headers, Jim's "secret" cam and all sorts of other goodies. So the hope is that this engine will take advantage of all sorts of racing engine technology and direct that instead toward fuel economy. There have been discussions periodically about fuel economy. EFI can help, but to make really serious gains you should take (as corporate slang would put it: ) "a systems approach" to the problem of better gas mileage. Even the best EFI system won't help much if you have poorly chosen rear-end ratio (just to pick one issue.) Cheers, Edouard :beer
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Your question has so many variables, and I agree with Randall's point that an overdrive transmission and a carb will get you 90% of what you're after. EFI is awesome after it's properly tuned, especially in the cold-start and drastic elevation change scenarios.... it also may get you better mileage. That hypothetical 454 fuel injection idea - on a 454 the difference in mileage is about 25% (which sounds awesome until you realize it went from 9 mpg to 12 mpg - but still will get the same mileage when fully loaded). If you're planning on a power adder - run, don't walk to EFI. If not, it's really hard to do the work to convert from the simplicity of a carb. Especially if it doesn't work right the first time (my first EFI was a holley projection that I couldn't get to stop flooding the motor). Of course, should you take the plunge, Randall, and Paul are both excellent resources for all things geek.
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) You caught on that I was using percentages for that reason. I've heard several people getting sub-10mpg going to 12-14mpg with an EFI swap, but you don't hear people that are getting 12-15mpg netting too much more and I think it's because performance carbs, namely square bore ones, tend to give too much fuel at cruise in order to satisfy the fuel requirements at WOT. Q-jet's and EFI do better in that department on trying to give the best of both worlds. My personal observations on my vehicles is that the OD trans nets an increase in mpgs almost exactly proportional to the drop in rpm. 30% drop in rpm, 30% increase in mpg, might not be exact but usually within 5%. Another word of note for why I found it worth it. I drive my car an average of 12,000 miles per year or more. Not many here put that kind of mileage on their old car. As for the sensors going out, or injectors, etc. Sensors really don't fail that often, especially considering how many millions of cars are running them now? I get mine second hand from the junkyard when ever possible. And with a standalone ECU it's a piece of cake to diagnose. Example being my shoddy wiring job made for my intake air temp sensor to intermittently quit reading, which then the ECU would default -40*F in this case. Driving I noticed a hiccup when it would go a tad rich from calculating the air as denser than it was, but as soon as I plugged the laptop in, five seconds of looking at the data inputs it was obvious where the hiccup was coming from, a sharp change in temperature to an unreasonable temperature for the day. Told me exactly where the problem was, which was installation error not the sensor itself. At no time was I even stranded, just a slight engine hesitation as the fueling calculation radically changed. People spin circles chasing mystery ignition and carb problems for simple hiccups like that. Another favorite story of mine that would of been impossible with a carb was when I blew a head gasket into the lifter valley while racing in Phoenix, AZ, 800 miles from home. Based on the spark plug and by removing one plug at a time I determined which cylinder was hurt the worse (I actually thought I cracked a piston or ring until I pulled the head) by the decrease in blow-by, so I unplugged that injector and spark plug and drove the 800 miles home on 7 cylinders. Sure a bit of fuel may of been sucked into that cylinder, but no where near as much going into the crankcase and exhaust if it were a carb. Another time I wiped a cam 150 miles from home (underrated valve springs) and it started bucking and backfiring on me. I managed to successfully troubleshoot and guesstimate which TWO cylinders were the worse offenders, unplugged the injectors and spark plug wires and drove it home on six cylinders with out too much hassle. Pulling the intake verified I guessed which two were giving me problems. 35,000 miles on the EFI since 2009 and counting. --Randal
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Well...I'm liking this more and more. My debate still lies on a couple factors right now, but all said and done I think the port injected rout is the way I want to go. First thing.....can anyone tell me about these? http://www.stylintrucks.com/parts/crosswind_efi_conversion_intake_manifolds/1104000204_22689.aspx# It says pontiac....but the also claims to fit a Buick 455 application. I'm still debating the cheaper route and doing it myself, but this could save me a lot of effort and minimize my "woops" factor. Second question.... can injectors be mounted horizontally? Lets say I can get my hands on a 401. Could risers be fabbed up so the injectors sit below the intake? Third thing....thank the good lord the site is back up!! I've been losing sleep and going bananas thinking of all the possibilities!!!
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Also..... thoughts on s 454 TBI/harness/ECU?
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) I plan on mounting the injectors horizontally on the OHC straight six I'm building. I'm possibly going to have a ~90* bend in the intake ports to the head and run the injectors horizontally shooting directly into the port. Run a straight length of pipe from the head roughly the volume of the cylinder. Even if I don't do that, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done, they are sealed systems. I wouldn't use a stock ECU. 454 harness, maybe and sure on the TBI.
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Okay cool. So it sounds like regardless if I go TBI or MPFI, a standalone system like the Megasquirt is my best bet.
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) I'm definitely open to other suggestions. I would definitely prefer a system that is: 1. Affordable and 2. well supported or known well by fellow board members. The last thing I need right now is to be a guinnea pig!
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Dear Stu and V-8 Buick EFI wannabees, I know it is a chicken and the egg situation, but I found myself seriously restrained by fears of becoming a guinea pig. There are quite a few systems that have enthusiastic owners on them "other engine platforms." However, I just couldn't stomach being the first Buick guy on the block with a "Super-Zippy" EFI system. I sure wish the various EFI manufacturers would take the time to have a least one sample installation of their systems on every engine type they claim to support and a real-live car owner that someone like me could have asked to see if the claims made are really true. So I'll wait out the sequential fuel injection route until more brave souls tell me about it. I also sure would like to see some hardware advances . . . alas in this economy, R&D is the area probably cut the most by everyone. Oh well, Cheers, Edouard
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) O.k let me put this fear to bed once and for all, I hope. Any EFI system has no idea what brand of application it's on, PERIOD! It's not human or living in any way shape form or fashion, it's a thing for crissakes, not a being. Now do spark/fuel maps differ from say one brand of 350 to another? Of course they do, but that also has to do with camshaft grind, head flow, intake design and so on. But remember for the most part, it takes X amount of fuel to make X amount of horsepower etc. What you should look for is ease of set up, ease of software navigation and overall support. I and other Accel dealers support this system, the software is some of the best/easiest in this class. But I tell everyone, download everyones software, use the help screens and make your determination from there. Thank you.
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) I agree. EFI doesn't know what it's on. Just like a carb, it doesn't care what it's on, it just has to be set up right. I'm hoping this weekend to go junkyarding to pick up some ignition coils, possibly a step towards to going distributorless on my Buick if I find the parts I want, and I hope to get some Buick 3.8 coil pack sets from the mid-80's for my OHC L6 Pontiac build.
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) I kept meaning to post this link. This is a pretty good book on the principles that EFI works under and covers a bit on how OEM's went about doing things one way or another. $13-$23 is well worth the money. http://www.amazon.com/Performance-F...5575/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1328797227&sr=8-2
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) One of the problems is that the thinking is still stuck back in the 20th century during the analog age of carburetors. Think Digital where any chunk of data can be sent anywhere in the world, modified and returned in seconds. If you purchase an EFI system that has data acquisition then the tune-up can be viewed by anyone, anywhere. They can make changes and the new file can be downloaded and tried on the spot. One of our engine tuners would sit at home in New York while we ran the car in the shop in Spokane WA, be telling us what he wanted us to do by cell phone and he would make changes to the EFI system while the engine was running using a wireless broadband connection to the laptop connected to the car system. With the new cell phones, you could be driving your new EFI system and have someone else tuning the car for you (long distance) as you drive down the road. Some systems even store mulitple tuneup files that you can change between with the flip of a switch. Could be handy if one of those files was setup for State emissions testing. Anyway, the bottom line is that many of the new systems allow you to get support as fast as you can email files back and forth and in some cases can also be real time support. Paul
Re: If you want fuel-economy look beyond EFI (Re: Dumbed down MPFI talk) Thank you Paul, you obviously know what you're talking about!! I send cals to people all the time, from right down the street to halfway across the world to Sweden. But did you know even the new XFI 2.0 you can't do that unless you load it to a seperate file? Trying to help someone in Belguim right now with an XFI and having trouble getting him a revised cal. Thank you for the real world facts, too much bad info out there.
