where is the aluminum head thread?

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by stk3171, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Chris, go reread the post you quoted, I wrote and I quote; "The above heads is for referencing the 30* back cut on how it effects the flow only." I wrote that because they weren't meant to be a comparison to the TA heads, just a reference to the 30* back cut only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

    Look I'm basically agreeing with everyone on the potential of these heads when ported!!!:rolleyes: I am in no way trying to argue that!!!!!!

    Seems some people need to practice their reading comprehension here! Or read the entire post not just skimming over it if that's why none of you seem to understand what I wrote!:rolleyes:

    Everyone keeps defending the heads saying things like they are new heads they need time for people to develop them.:rolleyes: I would have to agree with that statement!! I am not arguing that at all!!!

    My whole point is why aren't these right out of the box unported better than a level 3 sbb 350 factory head, like the rest of the TA line of heads seem to be?

    I am not asking why these flow the max that they can out of the box!:rolleyes: I am asking why these were held to a lower standard than the rest of the heads they sell?


    TA claims these would be a 30 + HP increase unported out of the box, here's what they wrote;


    "On most engines, out of the box performance will be 30+ HP." The page where this came from;

    http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_STAGE1-350AL


    Why aren't there tests to back up this claim from TA? If I need to test to back up what I am saying why doesn't TA? The only test from them that I know of is with the heavily ported heads, which I will admit did very very well but are ported.

    I am claiming(make sure to read this and not just skim over it) these heads will be lucky to make the same power as unported factory heads from just bolting them on unported out of the box.

    Again, here's why;

    All of the sbb 350 factory pistons and most of the aftermarket pistons available for this engine are full dish pistons, which makes the quench pad on the new heads irreverent, won't help to make more power at all with a full dish piston.

    Also most of these full dish pistons are more than .040" in the hole before the head gasket thickness is even factored in. Even if someone uses those flat top v6 pistons to try to raise the compression, those are IIRC, around .080" in the hole before factoring in head gasket thickness.

    And there is the fact that the tallest roller cam lobe is .365", with TA's 1.65:1 roller rockers this will only give a .602" lift at the valve. So what good is much more flow above .600" ? Like saying, yeah they flow 300 but @ 1.00" lift but only 220 @ .600" lift!:rolleyes:

    Another mote point people keep bringing up is the bore size of 3.800", well a lot of the LS series engines have smaller bores than that with the factory head flow better than these and with porting flow potential just below 300(factory heads!).:eek:

    Now if they were held to the same standard as the rest of their heads are then they would definitely, not just maybe make more power just bolting them on without any porting to just about any sbb 350 engine configuration! This is my whole point. How is posting the truth bashing TA?
     
  2. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Why aren't they with the other heads they make that I posted?

    I think the others are, but just start up higher(better) than these.
     
  3. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    lol Julian my life revolves around Math, Flow bench is piggybacked with Performance Trends Port Flow Analyzer Pro and Performance Trends Engine Analyzer Pro, PipeMax Engine and Header Design software, a bunch of stuff from Darin Morgan etc etc. Flow bench and Dyno's are ALL tools in the tool box. All I was trying to say is that if you lived by the math Super Stockers, Stockers, Gary's Engine etc would say none of them have big enough heads to run as fast as they do at the track. And yes Drag strip timers use math but they do not control/dictate how fast the cars runs. You are overthinking what I said and generalizing it.
     
    Mart likes this.
  4. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Watch this video, I can do Valve to piston without even assembling it, you can retard advance cam and recheck, check it out. Math is great and important but the track has the final say.
     
    Mart likes this.
  5. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    That is why there is many different CNC ported heads out there, its not one size fits all. Have a look on the net, if it did not matter all those heads would have the same runner sizes etc. I am going to end this with a recommendation Derek start reading up on porting threads and there are some entry level books out there that would help also but you might end up more confused then you are now. I bought all my stuff in 2011 and I still get confused on some stuff lol I have been lucky to have some help from some very smart people. By your last post a lot of what I have posted has gone over your head. A lot of people think if you can pee you can grind on heads. I just want to get this moving forward for those guys out there that want actual data and results and if it doesn't turn into another **** show I will post up some info on the 350 TA heads etc.
     
    Mart and 1972Mach1 like this.
  6. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    With all due respect for what you do and know, my posts are referring to unported out of the box heads. And comparing them to the other TA unported out of the box heads.

    I was never disputing the ported potential of these.
     
  7. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Let us get a valve job sorted out and see where the out of the box flow #s end up. Most of you guys were not around when TA started making BBB heads so I don't expect you to understand that it all started with 1 head and from there the platform that TA gave us evolve from that and these 350 are miles ahead of what we started with and that is not a knock on the first BBB heads its just after making stg2's then stg3's, stg2se's, stg4, stg1se, stg1TE Mike has learned a load of info about building aluminum heads etc. You are limited because of head bolts, intake bolts, push rod holes etc etc. Mike has tried hard to evolve his heads all while keeping things so the Buick crowd can re use as many parts as possible to keep the cost down for us. I am pretty confident we can work with a valve job ands some blending to get some decent out of the box with blending flow #s. These heads will work and work well after some fine tuning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
    sriley531 and 300sbb_overkill like this.
  8. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Yeah you're right, I haven't been watching when TA came out with the first 455 heads and how they evolved over the years. But with all their al. head experience and how their Rover heads were a home run out of the box from the first run made me think these would be to the Rover standards where the rest of their entry level products are now.........., so maybe I was expecting to much from them?:confused:

    If the first run of these are 100 sets, that's going to be a whole lot of years before they can make casting changes for out of the box improvements!:eek:(hurry up and buy this first run Sean:p:D)

    The 350 crowd had one shot at these so I guess they are what they are now, to bad they didn't listen to me when they were still working on them towards the beginning of the al. head thread or one of the other 350 head threads posted. They did listen to my input about the SP3 though and that product turned out to be a home run out of the box.(they originally wanted to put a heat crossover and no air gap!) What I just wrote can be looked up if those threads aren't deleted.
     
  9. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Derek, you really need to stop with the negative BS, its a valve job improvement we are looking for not a casting issue they are a great casting but that's right you wouldn't know this because you have not seen it in person let alone ported it. And by the way if you look at the TA sheet iron vs Aluminum Not only does the TA bowl blend not only out flow the factory head on the Int and Ex it has 190cc vs 156 which is most likely almost as important as the air flow gains AND it has a modern 3cc smaller combustion chamber AND it takes 50 lbs of the nose of the car. You do not get any of it for some unknown reason. Stay on the porch and clam up or order a set and prove me wrong . Give it a break dude. I am done with your obsessed narcissistic behavior. Will the cops arrest me if I tell you to hit your self in the head with a hammer. Dang.
     
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  10. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    No one is ridiculing math, we are simply pointing out that these heads can’t be condemned based on a few numbers.

    William Mahoney (bill mah) and Scott (https://www.shafiroff.com) spent literally hundreds of hours experimenting with porting iron Buick 350 heads and doing dyno testing each Saturday as a hobby. They ended up at 550 hp with 8:1 compression and then 1021 HP with a supercharger. They put that engine into a car and ran 8 second quarter miles. No stroke added, 355 cubes. Eagle crank and child’s and Albert rods with custom pistons. No block girdle. They did this for a reason, they wanted to show what the Buick 350 could do as it was designed by Buick. The rods were stock length, pistons stock compression height.

    They had to start over 4 times because of cylinder heads cracking, thousands of $ in time and money went into each set of iron heads. The worst thing was the inconsistency of the heads, thin spots in one set were not the same on other heads. Each set they ported was a little different once they got to the problem thin areas. Once they ported them to the max effort there was barely any metal in important places where they needed it!

    There were 2 people from Edelbrock at the dyno session in NY, they came to witness this project reach its culmination. They were impressed and they agreed that with a set of alum heads this engine could be a real powerhouse in a small light package.

    So about a year later Edelbrock sent Scott a set of heads. Prototype Buick 350 heads. They flow tested them and the results were promising. They bolted them on and they were down big time in HP and TQ. They spent a bunch of time trying to point out the flaws and help eddy improve the design. But at that point Edelbrock abandoned the project, it just wasn’t something they had enough interest in, plus a small customer base.

    My point is that it’s not easy to design and produce a cylinder head, this is an art! I’ve spoken to the designer that TA hired to do the 350 heads and I’ve seen the progression of patterns and moulds over the past few years. I’ve been blessed to develop a friendship with Michael, he is a super awesome person and him and his dad are seriously devoted to Buick’s and more so the community! It’s not easy to make something like TA Performance work, it’s all custom stuff and there is a small niche market. It’s not like they sell thousands of parts a month.

    When I first got into Buick’s I was shocked at TAs prices, and over the years I have learned that we need to invest our money into TA because they are investing in us!

    You know what hurts me though, like really deep down??? Michael and his family gave a ton of money and time into these heads and people aren’t giving them a fair shake.

    Also, when there are more developments and testing done then then the next run of heads will be gradually improved. This is what TA has done with their BBB heads, I’m not sure how many times but at least 3 times they have improved the heads based on the things learned by porting racing and feedback.

    And as a solute to the Buick community Chris Skaling is sharing his knowledge and testing with TA to help further the progression. Head porting is an art, and it takes a ton of time to perfect these things.

    Let’s have fun, let’s build some hot little 350s and go beat up on the Mopars!
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
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  11. 72gs4spd

    72gs4spd Well-Known Member

    I agree with Sean. I feel TA designed the heads to fit a lot of people’s needs. Not everyone is going for high horsepower builds. If you are pay the extra for porting. It’s the price of being different. You can always build a Chevy. Lol
     
  12. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    TA had two choices:

    1. Build a set of heads that requires a special intake and special headers but offers better racing potential.

    2. build a set of heads that can be swapped on to any 350 and can use existing headers and intakes etc.

    I know sales are slow now but they will pick up once we have our testing completed and track proof published.

    How many race 350 heads do you think TA would sell? I mean the option 1 style with custom intake and new headers? Sure I would buy a set but not many other people would.

    Ta did the right thing, and don’t think these heads are not a gain over stock they really are.

    It used to be that 350 hp was a hot 350 and now 480 hp has been achieved with the same style mild cam.
     
    MrSony likes this.
  13. UNDERDOG350

    UNDERDOG350 350 Buick purestock racer

    What are the cam specs and compression ratio from the 480hp test engine?
     
  14. Jim Blackwood

    Jim Blackwood Well-Known Member

    To be fair, when the Rover heads came out we didn't know what we were getting either. Nobody had any idea what the flow numbers would be because there weren't any published. The only thing we had to go on was the claim that they had somehow been roughly based on the V6 heads which we all knew were good, but we also saw that it wasn't just a saw and glue core pattern job so we knew they were going to be different in some ways. How that was going to affect flow was anybody's guess.

    Sounds a whole lot like the situation with the 350 heads right now doesn't it?

    I would suggest that this is the normal pattern with TA, following much the same path as their introduction of the big block heads way back when. So the logical result would be that you can expect good things from the 350 heads. I'm going to go on record here in saying that when the dust has settled it will turn out that the 350 heads ARE a marked improvement right out of the box. Prove me wrong? By all means try.

    Jim
     
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  15. UNDERDOG350

    UNDERDOG350 350 Buick purestock racer

    Just FYI, Sonny Seal probably way over 400HP with iron heads.
    14 sets sold in 3 months and nobody has a running engine yet?
    Does anyone intend to just install the heads out of the box or are they all being ported?
    Does anyone have the cam specs and compression from Mikes engine?
     
  16. UNDERDOG350

    UNDERDOG350 350 Buick purestock racer

    Found it way back. .600" lift, 750 Holley, 10.5 comp.
    Heads have been out way over 3 months ago. Who is buying these and then not using them?
     
  17. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    Derek, This is your bad JuJu.

    "(which makes me believe they (TA) don't really want to sell 350 parts and want everyone to swap to the parts with a better standard out of the box and even cost less as well:rolleyes:)"

    You think they spent development, time, & money on new 350 heads to promote selling all their 455 stuff? WOW....
     
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  18. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    It’s funny Derek because by your claims you should be the director or TA. You seem to think you know more than TA about Buick’s however you don’t even own one! If you were as smart as you think you are then you would be wealthy.

    TAs wagon was powered by a 350 back in the day. I don’t remembered how fast it ran but it was a healthy setup! They did everything they could at the time with the resources available and it was successful. That engine was placed on a pallet and put up on the shelf and the 455 development began. I think (and I could be wrong) but this may have been before TA was actually a company. This is a racing family that started developing parts because Kenne Bell was starting to phase out.

    25 plus years ago it was super easy to decide if you wanted a 350 or 455. If you wanted a nice street car and have it run 13s the 350 was fine. If you wanted to go fast the 455 was the only real option. Even without alum heads it’s easy to make 500+ hp with the 30% larger engine. The 455s gave had some challenges with longevity in the High HP levels but they have always been the lower cost way to go fast.

    Making an honest 500 streetable HP with a 355 inch engine is damn good! Add a turbo or nitrous and 700 hp is a cake walk.

    In 2019 the 350 is getting its chance to shine.

    1. tons of cores available for low $
    2. 410 pounds with alum intake and heads
    3. No need for big cubes when you use a power adder
    4. We have low cost forged rods and low cost pistons
    5. We have billet cranks available
    6. We have 1” thick girdles available
    7. The alum heads are the final piece of the puzzle. Now we can quickly and easily massage them into something amazing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  19. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    It's just a yes or no answer question....I guess that's a yes.

    You might be lucky if TA even sells you an oil pan gasket.
    Like I said, bad JuJu.
     
    sean Buick 76 likes this.
  20. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    Once that bell was rung, it pretty much nailed down my position on Derek's opinions. No one (TA) spends the time and money to bring something like the 350 heads to production, simply to channel the masses into the chute for 455 heads.

    And when I shave, I shave with Ocam's razor...

    I am (likely) too old to build a 350 with the TA heads, but I certainly would like to do it and see what crazy results I could obtain. My current BBB is likely my last hurrah.

    But I want to see the guys and gals that do push the TA 350 heads, shame the "other brands" of cars as Buick are wont to do.

    Get some!
     

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