where is the aluminum head thread?

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by stk3171, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Yeah I'm still wondering why too, like they did with the 455 heads that unported are better than most ported cast iron heads out there. And the TA Rover heads flow more than any of the heads that can be used in that app. can be ported to right out of the box no porting.:confused:
     
  2. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    well sad Gary!
     
  3. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    You don’t honestly think that TA just designed a head and mass produced it blindly do you? They obviously had a prototype head made, proved it worked well, fixed a few flaws and went onto production. Part way through they had to re-do the casting to solve problems. It’s easy to sit back and complain but Michael and his family made a huge financial leap to give us these heads. They didn’t do it to make money they did it because we need a 350 head to work off. Now that we have these heads we can keep moving forward, but please stop complaining about them it’s embarrassing. How much do you guys think it costs to make 100 Buick 350 cylinder heads? With all the engineering, machine work and foundry costs TA wasn’t doing this to make money they did it to help the community!

    TA has a Buick 350 drag racer that tests their stuff before they release it. They track tested the single plane intake before it was released and a guarantee they tested the heads too.
     
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  4. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    You think Chris enjoys spending he
    Do you honestly believe that Chris enjoys spending hundreds of hours porting heads. Yes he enjoys it and he loves what he does but the fact is that he developed some of the best ported 455 heads and shared that info with TA to help them improve their product and reduce porting time.

    You honestly need to get off the computer and start having a few phone conversations with the actual “Buick experts” before you keep spouting off.
     
  5. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    When did I say that?
     
  6. UNDERDOG350

    UNDERDOG350 350 Buick purestock racer

    I wasn't complaining. Just wondering why, if they knew hand porting a specific area made such an improvement, it was not incorporated into the product. Will this information learned be included in the next run of castings?
    They should publish the results of testing form their drag racer so customers have some idea what to expect. It's in their own best interest.
    Thats all I'm asking. Not bashing at all.

    TA is not a mega corporation. This was a large investment for them, no doubt turning dollars into pennies. As I've said before I appreciate all they do to promote Buick technology.
     
  7. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Why? Because "Port Size and volume" and throat size are adjustable to given combinations.
     
  8. 1973gs

    1973gs Well-Known Member

    Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a mechanic, not an engine builder, but if you bolt aluminum heads on any engine, won't it make less power without making any other modifications to the engine? Don't aluminum heads require more compression than cast iron heads? Wouldn't the engine also need a different cam and carb calibration to make a large performance gain? Now maybe a rear axle ratio change? No one item will give massive power gains. The entire car has to work together. We now have a good head to start with. Don't bash the heads until you've utilized their potential by building a complete engine with the correct parts.
     
    StfSocal likes this.
  9. Jim Blackwood

    Jim Blackwood Well-Known Member

    That's kinda the way I feel about it too, but for the 300/340 it's all about the chamber volume. You could maybe bolt on a set of Rover heads to a 2bbl engine and go but it'd kinda depend on the cam whether you ended up with too much compression or not. I think it could work. I won't be the one to try it, but if TA proved the concept I bet they'd create a new market, so there's some incentive to try it. If it works that becomes the short road to instant performance.

    That's not the case with the 350 heads though since they will only give a very small bump in compression. What they will do is let you get the most out of that hot cam, headers, intake and maybe a good set of pistons. Can't really build a good engine without good pistons now can you?

    But to compare them to ported iron heads doesn't seem like the right approach. Those iron heads have been maxed out at no small expense but they started out much different. I think the right question here is, once the new heads are taken to the max how do they compare? Or if you want to compare out of the box, how do they compare to unported stock irons? I'd say they might outshine the iron heads either way, and if that's so then all you guys are really complaining about is the cost. And am I misinformed or is that not somewhat comparable to other top end heads such as say for example AFR SBF heads? Just asking.

    Jim
     
  10. PGSS

    PGSS Gold Level Contributor

    Who here is the closest to a running AL headed 350??????
    100 pages of opinions on both threads:eek: and we just need ONE motor running:D
     
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  11. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    TA has a running engine, 480HP. Would love to see it in a car that makes a pass.

     
    PGSS likes this.
  12. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Derek, you are seriously making a complete ass of yourself. Your bias towards TA for whatever reason is more than obvious. You time and time again spew BS that is irrelevant and inaccurate. 1) The down fall of the SBB is the undersized 3.800 bore size vs chev 350, Dodge 340, ford 302 etc that start life no smaller than a 4.00 inch bore and its not uncommon for the aftermarket bores sizes to be up over 4.125 with the aftermarket blocks and this has a big effect on air flow testing results that is why a lot of people go straight to the biggest bore because #s sell. Note they posted "without pipe" but do not give the bore size they used, but list that it fits everything from a 3.736 to a 4.125 bore size so what bore size did they flow them on? I bet they would tell you its the smaller bore size but either way they only give you one set of flow#s because a lot of you car guys are number guys. 2) You are comparing a TA 190cc head to a 220cc and 218cc head so its a apples and oranges comparison. 3) You are comparing a new TA head that has not yet had a max effort. ie: when I ported the Ex side it was basically just a clean up the runner and blend the VJ so there is more room for improvements there and by the way if the Ex side is not keeping up to the intake side you simply custom grind a cam and problem solved. Int/Ex % is old school thinking but that said I do not think this is a issue with these heads as the Ex is not fully developed yet. 4) Note both examples of the heads you posted did not stop @ .600 lift for a couple reasons, do not try to belittle me by posting crap like this "From the numbers I remember Chris posting IIRC the flow kept rising into the unusable lift range as I referenced above." Your lack of knowledge is shining yet again, you show that you have no idea why the importance of a head that doesn't crash right after peak cam lift. 5) Comparing max effort CNC ported one size fits all head to this brand TA head is totally irresponsible on your part as none of us have fully dug into them.. 6) I am sick of seeing these constant post from people talking about back cuts like all ports like a back and its always a 30* back cut, did you ever think that maybe the exhaust side doesn't like a back cut or if it does how wide is it or where is the 45* at on the seat?Maybe its aa 50* and what back cut would you use then etc etc. Different ports like different back cuts or none at all so your lecture, and I quote "I know on the Promaxx CNC 23* sbc heads that flow 300 CFM at .600" lift use 30* back cut valves to get the flow down in the more usable lift range, maybe something Chris can try out when he gets to that next set of sbb 350 heads?" I used a 30* back cut. Derek, I have never seen anyone since joining V8buick in 2003 I don't think I have seen anyone post so much irrelevant and inaccurate info on cylinder tech. I encourage you to spend the money and buy a seat and guide machine, valve grinder and good quality modern Flow bench with supporting Programs and dig in to air flow but until you do that you are pissing in the wind. These TA SBB heads have not fully been explored and developed yet like any other New head, I have new cutters on the way because of the small bore the combustion chamber is tight to the valves so my BBB cutters will not work so there is a need for further testing and tweaking. Derek, if you haven't worked with this head you and anyone else slinging false data etc have no business evaluating any head let alone this New TA head as you guys are out of your wheelhouse here. This SBB head has a modern Combustion chamber, a beautiful bowl, you can use your stock rockers, TA roller shaft mounted rockers and chev stud mounted rockers, there has been much time, thought and MONEY invested in these heads. I am sure most of the majority of the sbb guys out there are not going to let a few bench racers with calculators mislead them. You should apologize to everyone watching for spreading False, irrelevant and inaccurate info. I have a lot on my plate right now but When I get the new cutters I will dig in to get out of the box with a Valve job and blend data and maybe a mid ported and fully ported head results for those looking at buying these heads.
     
  13. PGSS

    PGSS Gold Level Contributor

    ^^^^The "like" option on the right should have a "love" option^^^^:)
     
  14. PGSS

    PGSS Gold Level Contributor

    He has to be waiting for a buyer opinion?? Which we can understand why:)
     
  15. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Possibly, all I can relate is my experience with the TA 455 heads. I'm thinking this in no way translates to what the 350 heads will do, but it's all I have. When I bought my GS, it had an all iron engine, stock Stage1 heads, KB118 cam, MT headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, 67 BT Switch Pitch with 12" TSP converter, and stock OO 3.42 Posi. The car weighed about 4100 lbs with me in it. (nothing in the trunk and 1/2 tank of gas). My best was a 13.22 @ 101 MPH.

    I had Greg Gessler do a set of TA Stage1SE heads to his level 2, basically entry level porting. They flowed 313/225 @ .550 lift. I remember him remarking that the flowed better than his iron heads on his F.A.S.T. 1972 GS. He milled them .040" to up my compression. It was measured at 9.4:1 with the iron heads when taken apart. Chambers ended up at 59cc, which gave me a full number bump to 10.4:1.

    HeadFlownumbers.jpg

    At the same time, Greg did an Edelbrock Performer intake for me, he did some work in the plenum and ground a notch in the secondary divider.

    Spacer2.JPG

    When I ran the car at the track, with the same QJ, it immediately put me into the mid 12's at 107 MPH. I added the SP1 intake and ran a best of 12.20 @ 110.65. With the AED 1000 HO Double pumper, my best was a 12.11 @ 111.98 MPH. That's 1.1 seconds and 11 MPH improvement.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
    Mart likes this.
  16. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    Generalizing on the "why not cast them at max or near max porting dimensions?" question. (and other rambling...)

    It is hard to put material into a finished set of heads.

    There will be applications that will do better/worse with certain porting.

    It took several years and experiences to realize moving the floor up on the big heads improved things over taking too much out of the bottom. (recall the heads that had floors epoxied and the runners worked somewhat counter to the general porting).

    There is a lot of art to the science, and simply running math numbers, calculations, flowing and computer modeling are no replacement for putting things together, and running testing and trials several ways and properly accounting for all the variables and what effect they have (there's a lot of art in that part).

    All the other "stuff" are the tools to get the physical where it will be.

    We have seen many times on engines that have been in use for over half a century, and still folks are surprised at the good or bad a change to this well known and (thought fully) understood design.

    We are "surprised", because experience and history have led us to believe certain things, until we find that the change did the unexpected.

    This is how the whole of it evolves and new and better ways to get more come about.

    I have watched my entire life, how things keep surprising us.

    How many of us in the late 70s and early 80s ever thought we would see 1000HP daily drivers sold by top auto manufactures that many could afford, and get 30MPG, on pump gas?

    Hell, many of us were putting on our mourning gowns and waiting for the funeral of the Hot Rod era.

    If the scene destroyed, it's because we wrapped it around a telephone pole.

    These heads are given to "us" to take to the next level. If anyone wants simple "bolt on" and no self involvement, go buy a Chevy. There are hundreds of accessories for the "Barbie Doll Brand". *


    (* not hating on Chevy, or anyone that wants the easy way to having fun, to each his own, but I want to put myself in the process, not simply "spectate". And to be fair and give credit, the Chevy (and others) crowd helped pave the roads we drive on, metaphorically speaking.)

    So, if we can't all just get along, can we race? :D
     
    TABuickMike and StfSocal like this.
  17. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    Time to feel the love.... we have heads!
    20191125_133403.jpg
     
  18. PGSS

    PGSS Gold Level Contributor

  19. ken betts

    ken betts Well-Known Member

    Wow, if anyone knows the time and money that Mike put into his heads it’s me. 2 years after manufacture, still not on the track. There are plenty of Buick enthusiasts that will take Mike’s head and bolt on a motor and go, others that will take them right out of the box and start changing them. That’s part of the fun for both Buick lovers.
     
    Mart likes this.
  20. Julian

    Julian Well-Known Member

    I think it's funny you guys ridicule math. When dynos use math to calculate horsepower. Drag strip timers use math. Shaking my head.

    Lots of things use math and you don't realize it. Math is there for a standardization. Your calculations of cubic feet per minute is done by math.
     
    300sbb_overkill likes this.

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