where is the aluminum head thread?

I know your not bashing Steve
My A/F readings going down the track is what I got to glance at going down the track, I am fixated on the tach, my last two runs I shifted at 7 grand and that gave me the best time so far, I finally broke 100 mph.
This spring Im going back at it

 

I keep hearing about the potential of these heads when they're PORTED and nothing about out of the box performance. I get it, I can see the potential AFTER porting too but would be a waste of $$$ for anyone that wants to bolt them on right out of the box without paying the extra$$ to make them performance heads with VERY expensive porting on top od the VERY expensive price tag!

Unless of coarse someone is doing a ground up build so the heads will make decent power if the rest of the components are matched to the heads. Which would include having pistons that do NOT have a full dish like every sbb factory piston has and most of the aftermarket ones do as well! And will need a cam with enough lift to utilize the flow characteristics of the ports. But the guy with full dish even aftermarket pistons on a low mileage rebuild that thinks he or she will get a decent HP boost just bolting a set of these OUT OF THE BOX UNPORTED is going to be VERY disappointed!

I can see why Chris posted what he did, he makes a living PORTING Buick heads and building Buick engines! Of coarse he's going to love these sub-par out of the box heads that do have great potential AFTER they are ported! Sorry Chris, just the reality of it and I would see it your way too if in I made a living what you do.

 

So you are saying that I am lying to everyone here to get work? Derick I don't know what has happened to you but your ego is larger then a dump truck, and yes the same dump truck full of the BS you are dumping here. I have never seen someone give so much opinion about a product you haven't worked with.

 

Like to start out saying how I admire what you have done with your stock block build! Awesome job!

Now back to the math, with a no porting out of the box and bolt them on to what you already have scenario the math is all this has. More than likely the engine will have full dish pistons and be many thousands in the hole so the whole "these heads are closed chamber and have quench pads" thing goes out the window! And the cam that would be in that engine would more than likely not be optimized for the flow characteristics of the new heads so that's Not optimized either.

With you knowing that to eek every last little bit of HP out of a combo you had to make your components all match each other in the best harmony you could afford to get your engine as optimized as its is. Now what do you think would happen with the unported TA 350 heads someone just wants to take them out of the box and bolt them on crowd? Would there build be optimized for the new heads to make even the same power as the cast iron that came off even if the compression ratio is the same?

Now I also know the TA 455 heads would absolutely make more power than a factory unported head even if the compression ratio is the same because it is around 215 CFM compared to the unported out of the box 290 CFM TA aluminum entry level unported 455 heads have. They flow around what a level 3 cast iron ported 455 head would flow, and with just the entry level bowl blending they flow better than most level 4 factory ported heads! Same deal here, more than likely full dish pistons and around the same C/R.

Out of the box the TA sbb 350 heads flow less than novice first timer home ported heads do, I have seen the flow numbers first hand(actually watched the head being flowed). That home ported head is going to absolutely make more power than the TA unported head will even if the aluminum heads have 1:1 more compression and will fall very short if they are both the same C/R.

The unported TA 350 head wouldn't even come close to being near the power output on a level 3 ported factory head that would flow around 260 CFM. The power to weight savings just isn't there to trade less power for lighter heads. NOW IF, JUST IF, TA made the sbb 350 heads to the same standard as the 455 heads then it would be worth swapping heads that would make the same power and weigh less or even better would be to make more power than factory unported heads. Which even with everything being the same but the new heads flowed 55 to 75 cfm more they would make more HP just bolting them on like one can do with the TA 455 heads.(which makes me believe they don't really want to sell 350 parts and want everyone to swap to the parts with a better standard out of the box and even cost less as well)

 

Chris, if they would make more power without any porting out of the box I wouldn't have to "work with them" so to speak now would I?

This is so simple what I am trying to say, the new heads are not a bolt on power adder out of the box part.(period) This isn't meant to bash, its pointing out a fact, that's it.

And I DO AGREE with everyone about the potential of these heads AFTER they are ported and optimized with matching components. I still say TA threw the sbb 350 crowd a bone with these heads and want them to bend over and take it. They cost more the TA BBB aluminum heads that has less aluminum in them(cost more for less) and they're held to a lower standard than the TA BBB heads! Why is stating facts BS?

 

Please post pictures and what you found???? What I am saying is that anyone that post like this had better have worked with them before beeking off. I do not recall seeing anyone rip apart a product like this without having them in front of them and doing there own valve job etc. How many cc's are a stock head runners vs this new head? You are totally off base. I could respect your opinion if you actually worked on a set. There is more to heads then flow.

 

Chris, are you saying that if someone bolts a set of these heads unported and out of the box to their low mileage rebuild with 8:1 FULL dish jobber pistons that are .080" in the hole with a stock replacement cam that there will be a noticeable power increase?

What about if it is a low mileage somewhat performance orientated build but still has FULL dish pistons that are 9.5:1 and maybe a Crower level 3 cam, do you think bolting these on will increase power?

I don't need them in my hands to know they WON'T be a unported out of the box power adder from just bolting them on to what one already has with the info available about them, the math says so. If you actually read my posts all the way through I do explain why they won't make more power. Not going to write it out again, go back and read what I wrote, its all there.

The math gets thrown out the window when the combo gets optimized, then and only then. aftermarket full dish pistons that are .060" in the hole even with the .020" steel shim head gaskets won't be anywhere near the optimum quench range at all. Doesn't really matter though because they are full dish pistons anyway so the closed chamber is useless here.

Now are you going to put up your reputation and say for certain that you can recommend these heads to the recent rebuild crowd and guaranty that they will make more power with a set of these, unported and out of the box?

Hey, I'm actually agreeing with you that they have big potential WHEN PORTED, send them to Chris before anyone reading this bolts them on and they probably will make more power when just bolted on. Probably would need a cam upgrade as well though with more lift to reach the extra flow? Can't say for sure here though without more data or testing because this would get beyond the simple math.

 

I have some projects here I need to get done but in a couple weeks I will do a proper valve job and blend and see what I get and post it up. Who has proper 350 flow sheets to post up here?

 

(Ignore this text, just formatting it works) .100 ..... .200 .... .300 .... .400 .... .500 .. .600

Buick 350 Rick Crawford Iron N/A Stock Valves 55/44 112/100 165/119 199/137 196/146 199/149

Buick 350 Rick Crawford Ported Iron N/A 1.92/1.55 65/66 122/114 180/150 236/179 260/191 264/199

 

I wonder if it would be possible to get that thread cleaned up and brought back so that we can keep adding to it. It would be a shame to lose all that info and conversation? I will see if my cutters etc give better results. The valve job is key. I don't want a pissing match any long or I will be done with this project. Lets clean that other thread up buy getting rid of all the negative bs and lets see if we can not get some positive results for you guys that are looking to up grade into a good set of heads for your sbb's. I would like to see proper flow sheets that might have some useful data to work with. My bench is a Super Flow 750, the #s are accurate and not fluffed up. The biggest issue the sbb has head wise is the bore

I honestly would like to see a proper flow sheet with data like bore size etc. A lot of guys do not go out of their way to get the correct sbb bore size, was there a pipe used on the ex side and if so what size did they use?

 

Like my school locker combination.

 

It’s real life, make it real. Make big power or shut up. I’m doing my thing.

 

Lets compare the ported irons to;

To a set of TA ported TA 350 heads;

The irons look to have more low lift flow than the TA heads where they max out @ .600" lift. That's a good place to max out because with the TA 1.65:1 roller rockers all of that porting can be used to make power seeing how the biggest roller cam lobe is only .365" that will give a .602" lift to use ALL of the flow that is available! I like how the ported cast irons even have more ex. flow than the TA ported TA heads!

With those TA ported heads I guess the roller cam can be ground on a smaller base circle to get more lift?(at an extra cost I'm sure)

Its no wonder they wanted there new heads to have smaller chambers, then they might have a chance to be higher static compression if the heads coming off weren't previously milled? That way the higher compression might make it feel like its making a little more power?

From the numbers I remember Chris posting IIRC the flow kept rising into the unusable lift range as I referenced above.

Looks like the sbb needs either a cam with taller lobes or rockers with higher ratios for these heads? Or maybe a 30* back cut on the valves to raise the low lift flow?(testing would be required)

I know on the Promaxx CNC 23* sbc heads that flow 300 CFM at .600" lift use 30* back cut valves to get the flow down in the more usable lift range, maybe something Chris can try out when he gets to that next set of sbb 350 heads?

Oh and the above is a more of a critique than bashing. TA makes some great products, IMO this one looks to be a little below their standards. More testing and data required to know for sure................

The heads referenced to;

Flow Specs @ 28" w/2.08"/1.60" w/30° Backcut valves

.200" .300" .400" .500" .600" .700" .800"
Intake 141 206 257 284 300 305 305

Exhaust 111 144 171 189 202 211 216

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ProMaxx-CN...-Block-Chevy-Cylinder-Heads-BARE/112581306047

The above heads is for referencing the 30* back cut on how it effects the flow only.

Here are I would guess the same heads without the back cut valves?;

Flow Specs @ 28"

.200" .300" .400" .500" .600" .700" .800"
Intake cfm: 157 213 255 279 287 296 302
Exhaust cfm: 111 146 174 192 203 211 217 ( no pipe )

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-...076083?hash=item1cc5b54733:g:rg8AAOxygPtS-PMf

 

OG AL head thread is back up.

 

Buickstage1- forget everything we have learned about the internal combustion engine. The collective millions of hours of r&d, throw it all away... all of the math and engineering involed in building any engine. All because you don't like the proven results and theory.

 

Has anyone else wondered why they just didn't cast the head to be the same as what it would be after the porting?