Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by stk3171, Nov 20, 2019.
Put a blower on it.
Yeah, your point is that if you throw enough $$$ at these heads they can make lots of power! If we all were gazillion Aires like you seem to be to throw a mountain of $$ to overcome the inadequacies of the out of the box potential of these then I wouldn't have to point out how TA seemed to just throw the sbb 350 crowd a bone and they expect us to bend over and take it or swap in a 455 and buy there better AND lessor expensive products!
My point was all along the OUT OF THE BOX performance, not sure why you keep referencing the engine TA did with heads that the average Joe would have to PAY thousands of $$ more to make their set of TA heads perform as good on there engine!?and smh.
A great test for these heads would be an engine like UNDERDOG's and just swapping them on his engine set up the same with the only difference being a head swap. If his cast iron heads are milled and have smaller chambers I would have to guess that the engine would absolutely make LESS power because of the loss of heat in the chamber.
And another thing, just look at where the max flow goes to when these things are ported! Over .700" lift, the biggest roller cam lobe is .365" that is available! That will only net .602" lift with 1.65:1 rockers! All those $$$ for port work that can't be used! So what the heads can be ported to 300+ CFM, try getting a cam to use all of it! And if you can then the block will need a lifter girdle to keep the spring pressure from breaking the lifter bores! Not to mention with lifts that high the very expensive springs would probably need to be changed every year! But hey, if you have enough $$$ to throw at it then its no problem, right?
Your not the only one that can rant, there's always two side of the story.
And my posts in the thread YOU deleted WERE very much so to help people, how else would they know before hand that just swapping the heads on wouldn't guaranty their engine would make more power. HOW IS THAT NOT HELPING?
Hey Underdog I am with ya I went to Norwalk for about the same amount of time as you I went to D42 with my brother a lot during the 90's up till they closed.
I had to have met you at Norwalk I went there just as many years as you. I got within 3 -4 cars left about 4 times of all the years I went there. I was talking to someone there with a 350 years ago and I bet it was you and was running good but I did not have to race this person I do not think but we had to be within the last 6 cars there at the time.
The last year I raced there in the Buick nats was in 2008 I went the next couple of years after that but it got rained out every time then it went bust.
I think I have about 500 runs on the motor I put that nitrous kit on there in 2005 I know I have 50 runs on that.
I have been blowing it down the track for many years have to be close, probably why it has slowed down a few tenths since then.
Technically Underdog should be able to put those heads on his stock lol engine and go a 12.99. got to be a 50 hp improvement over stock.
I agree that I think the heads should have flowed to at least the 235 that my heads were supposed to be at after TA did them or where ever they sent them to. TA was the ones that ported my heads back in 1994 So I just felt that the new heads should have outperformed my heads.
I guess someone needs to send me a set and see if I can go faster than my heads currently on the car. Then we would know.
BTW didn't that one guy Rob Margel? have that 525hp 350 that was done by Jim Burek That was with Iron Heads Maybe that thread was erased too..
Haha! Atta boy! Hope you were chasing loose women too!
This thread is just as interesting as the Aluminum Head thread
The combustion chamber design on the TA heads has to be an improvement over the open chamber of the irons.
Relocation of the valves in order to utilize up to a 2.02 intake valve HAS to be better.
The 50% weight loss over irons HAS to be worth something also.
If Im not pinging @ 11.1 to 1 with irons, Im going to have my aluminums (when I order 'em) milled enough to achieve 12 to 1 compression, too much compression should be just enough
Also going for the 2.02 valve option and the entry level porting.
(answer to in the bold)That is ONLY if the pistons are flat tops or have an inverted dome that has the corresponding flat where the quench pad is, otherwise it is the same as having open chambers.
Most sbb engines will have full dish pistons so that quench pad isn't going to do squat for the guy that wants to install a set of heads out of the box for a HP gain.(this guy is going to be very disappointed)
Now if someone were to purpose build an engine to get the most out of these heads then that's where they will shine, I would still recommend port work though. At least the level one to get them on par with home ported cast iron heads.
Pretty sure I can install 2.02 and 1.6 valves in an iron head without much drama. If only I could find my old head sections that someone borrowed. Didn't want to hack up another head but they are stacked up like firewood here.
Guy, I'm sure we would remember each other. My record at Norwalk was 47 runs in 1 day. I think 3 of us were taking turns driving.
No, you can't. IIRC the center to center dimension for the in. and ex. valves on a factory sbb 350 head is around 1.770";
2.02"/2 = 1/01"
1.6"/2 = .8"
1.01" + .8" = 1.810" would be needed and at that dimension they would be touching.
When to you have to have the sections? I think I know who borrowed them and might be able to get them for you. There are a couple more now, I think they're multiplying?
Guy, if you met Steve, you would definitely NOT forget him! He's about 7' tall, someone that tall is hard to forget! Someone that tall that is slim and trim has to be around 250 lbs? And he is running the times he runs in the "stock" class in a full weight GS350!
Derek, whenever you can. We can get together and I will share my idea.
Good info here guys, its not just CFM:
Im by far no expert in any of this stuff, but I believe its not all about airflow either.
There other pretty significant differences between the TA heads and Buick heads besides the material.
I just wish they were more like 2000 bucks instead of 2800 for an assembled pair, but its Buick stuff, and its coming from TA Performance, whom I whole heartedly trust that they are providing the BEST engine parts for us Buick guys, unlike Edelbrock, who makes a few changes to a Chevy or whatever head and says "Here, we can sell these to the Buick crowd too"
I honestly believe nobody is bashing TA here, its just a knee jerk reaction to the numbers for the heads as far as flow, and nobody has run a set DOWN THE TRACK.
I know I gonna hear it from the wife when I order a set, it going to be well over 3 grand with bigger valves and porting, and the engine is coming out to install 'em. but Im (were) not getting any younger, and if I don't do this, Im always going to wonder
A before and after track test would help IMMENSLY as far as proving these head's worth on a properly set up short block.
I hope to do this next spring/summer.
It is all about airflow- how much and how fast it's going. Thats how this whole thing works. This is why aftermarket heads exist. Its a huge business.. We have learned alot since 1970 regarding cylinder head tech- increasing cfm while maintaining port velocity is the trick.
If flow isn't important then stick with the factory irons? Ignore the countless dyno tests that prove otherwise?
HP potential= 0.25714 × CFM × No. of Cylinders
You can't beat math..
Mark, I appreciate what you're saying about doing it now before your too old. I'm in the same boat.
One thing you need to do is find the time to properly tune what you already have. You won't get it dialed in with 3 or 4 passes. I know you have read my posts but I don't think it has sunk in how many passes I've made for tuning purposes. I'm not going down the track just to wear out tires. I keep logs of the weather conditions, A/F readings, and what was changed on every pass. If a change makes an improvement then keep going in that direction until it slows down. That's how you find the sweet spot.
Without getting the most out of each combination you really won't know if your next combination was an improvement or if you just got lucky. With your current combination you should already be running 12's. Your tuning is just off somewhere. You need to find the time to pound some laps. Keep notes, I think you said you are already.
Not bashing so please don't take it that way. I know there's lots more in your current combo
Yes you can....Otherwise I would have never built the Buick engine I have now.
You have to look at the engine combo as a "package". Even if the dyno tells you your engine is 100 HP better, it's up to you to find it on the time slip.
I've seen a carburetor change that showed around 50 HP on the dyno but then run the same on the track as the carburetor it was tested against.
Flow numbers and engine dynos only get you started. The time slip tells the story and that's where the real work starts. It can be rewarding or depressing but until
a capable racer goes down the track with a given package in an efficient car.
The above formula says a BB Buick head can only make 800-some HP...The faster naturally aspirated BBB are showing around 1100 HP on their time slips.
Don't get caught up in the math, flow numbers, dyno numbers, etc...
You have one company that cares about your 350, at least get some solid results before you're so critical of their parts.
Until the next Sonny Seal comes along, we won't know what the TA 350 heads are capable of.
Actually the formula is dependent on the Vacuum setting however isn't including volumetric efficiency. This is where Gary's engine breaks formula and has a higher HP result.
The formula will give you an idea. Heck, Superflow gives you the equations .. check their website
The Rover head has some small steps in the ports where the CNC finish work ends, this is on the unported heads. I wonder if the unported 350 heads are the same?
I am disturbed at how long the list was that said they wanted a Good Aluminum Head and intake for the 350 and only a dozen or so people stepped up so far. On the out side looking in on threads like this it looks more like bench racers that have not ported these heads let alone installed a set to see the huge potential and gains over a ported iron head. It pisses me off to see how much money and time TA put into the SBB heads/intake for you guys and you haven't even had the new head in front of you to even qualify your self to give a honest opinion. Its similar to what I have said for years about the BBB guys, most have not even reached the full potential of the STG4B head but bitch like we have no options. Look at Stockers and Super Stockers, I have seen old 427's with 1 factory 780 holley make close to 900hp, Do the math on that engine and see how that works for your "Math" I am Discouraged to see these pissing matches from "experts" that haven't even seen a set in person, ported, flowed or used them but are knocking them. Until you have reached the full potential of what you have be thankful someone stepped up where not 1 other head company would of wasted 1 second of their valuable time making a head for a SBB. and if you insist on staying on the porch at least get it right. Sorry for getting pissed at some of the people bitching but I know how much money TA layed out here for you sbb guys when no one else did or ever will.
Well said with
there's a different mindset when you're building a stocker and super stocker engines you are set withina set of rules versus an open set of rules on an engine. Which most of these guys are pretty much doing.
Case in point, take a Jason line c S/A engine. I'm pretty sure it cost a great deal more with all the engineering and all the other stuff then someone open class engine. They're just different types of racing and the rules that go with it.
I see no problems of people being disgruntled about the 350 heads yes it's it's awesome that they're available. I do see everyone's point of view on the matter.
Julian, the ones bitching have not even had the heads in there hands let alone ported or ran them so how can you agree with that? Read the post, I am talking about how the "math" SS and stockers defy all of it, same as Garys engine, the math is way off of it, single 4 barrel correct my if I am wrong but didn't it make 1100 to 1150 with a Ta head? I don't know about your engine building but I do use some of the SS/stock tricks in my builds. This is all un support BS, bench racing, pissing in the wind. I get it, sitting on the porch is cheap but so is the talk. How can you be disgruntled if you don't even own a set??? I have a set here and posted the porting results and they will be dyn'd etc.