"traction Problems Forever" Solved

Discussion in 'Race car chassis tech' started by Gary Bohannon, Dec 25, 2007.

  1. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    2004 Nov. 15, and Dec 15 My threads on this site were pleading for a formula that would solve my traction problems and there were lots of good ideas submitted on the subject. I wanted street traction too. (Page back and read these.)

    2007 December, I installed some MOOG 5379 rear Skylark springs to go with my 6204 front El Camino springs (forget about moroso's) and got a perfect bite on a COLD blacktop street where I found shinny black grooves.I tried other areas and got near perfect traction and even when the tires slipped a little, it pulled like hell anyway at 40 DEGREES AND CLOUDY!!! ASTONISHED!!

    My Moog 5385 cargo rear springs were KILLING any chance of traction even at the track, as did my original 67 GS springs. Got 1.76 60ft only once, then 1.9,1.85, 2.0 in 50 passes. Always spun with 12.5" MT street,and M&H stickeys!

    My Edelbrock lower control arms are far from level as the rocker panel is 10 3/4" off the ground at the rear(and the front rocker panel is 9 3/4" high). SO MUCH FOR LEVEL ARMS, HUH.

    I removed my air bags, kept the cheap shocks, kept my stock swaybars. put a small amount of preload on the upper right UMI adjustable arm.
    NO WONDER THAT 65 EL CAMINO RAN 9 TEENS ON 9" TIRES AS MY SPRINGS ARE LIKE HIS. HIS STOCK CONTROL ARMS WERE STILL INTACT!!
    My conclusion is that springs are first on the list. Upper adjustable arms set pinion angle and preload. Tires and converter will do the rest.

    My 67 lifts the front instantly and pulls like hell and is LEVEL (no twist). I'll get 1.7's on the street now. my 2cents well spent
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2007
  2. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    So in summary...

    The right springs, soft shocks, and adjustable upper rear control arms?

    (If I didn't get those quite right, maybe you could correct me)

    -Bob Cunningham
     
  3. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Yes BoB,

    UP FRONT:
    I have stock rubber mounted A-arms, factory sway bar, cheap gas shocks, 6204 Moog springs.

    OUT BACK:
    I have 8.5" rear, 3.42 gear, posi, 28X12.5X15 MT Streets, Edelbrock lower control arms (Curries are better), UMI adjustable upper arms, braces for upper/lower controll arm front bolts(don't leave home without'em), stock 7/8" Chevy swaybar, cheap gas shocks, 5379 Moog springs.

    Engine:
    455, Big port heads, ported, STg 1 valves,10.1, C118 cam(20 yr old & 3rd eng), B4B, Q-jet 77 jets,48 rods, G hanger & CJ .397 rods, HEI 14-34 degrees,Stage 1 stock fuel pump, Cadillac fan 7 blades on a thermo clutch. (stock, used, and junk parts)

    Trans:
    TH400 switch pitch, KB 2000-3000 conv.(20 yr old), poly mount,& heavy duty drive shaft.

    Set pinion angle at -2, & put a little preload on right side, removed air bags & 5385 (stiff ass) springs that PREVENTED ANY TRACTION EVER.

    The GS feels like a totaly different car at launch. The two STOCK swaybars hold the car dead straight. Feels like I'm being shot from a cannon in an easy chair.

    I spents 2 years reading DOOR SLAMMERS ,THE CHASSIS BOOK (and many related articles)and came up with the one phrase that said the rear needs to squat slightly. I bought my 5379 Moog solutions for only $55. Imagine that.

    1967 GS 400: best 12.36 ET (when I somehow managed to get traction ONE TIME 10 years ago) GARY BOHANNON
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2007
  4. D-Con

    D-Con Kills Rats and Mice

    What page???

    Also, if you changed the spring s and air-bags at the same time, how do you know which it was? May I suggest that you improved it by pre-loading the RR upper control arm, and by removing the dampening affect and limited suspension travel because of the inflated air-bags? What do you think?
     
  5. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Since the 1980's, I let the air bags empty, at 5lb, 10lb, 15lb, 20lb, etc. and every combo left and right side. I left them totally empty for a year until I found the proper hoses to replaced the totaly cracked, deteriated original ones and so on. Never had any measureable effect on 60 ft or anything else except a funny looking lop sided car.
    My car does not twist like it did before, so I don't need them now.

    The preload was added 3 years ago when I installed the UMI upper arms. I swear the tires HIT HARDER THAN EVER, but the car was firmer and straighter, still no traction.

    10-15 years ago I even tried Lakewood no-hops, only to start to hook then blow the tires away.(Dick Miller says a lighter/softer spring must be used with no-hops to make them work properly).No wonder nothing worked for me...until now.

    The front soft springs gave me traction on the top 1/2 of low gear in 2006 and the skylark rear springs gave me all of low gear Dec. 2007
    Rear springs cost $55. Best money I ever put into my car.

    D-con, I cant find where I read about the little squat needed at the rear.... but it worked.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2007
  6. 70aqua_custom

    70aqua_custom Well-Known Member

    May I ask where you bought the springs?
     
  7. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  8. D-Con

    D-Con Kills Rats and Mice

    Interesting, I was able to keep all of my stock springs (who ever heard of that on a 64-5??) other than putting a little bit stiffer one in the LF. It always launched good with no-hops, but combining that with a 1/4 turn on the HR Parts R upper I added last year and it does even better. It sounds like we got to the same place in entirely different ways. :Do No:
     
  9. BuickBuddy

    BuickBuddy Registered V8 Offender GK

    Hey Gary.. I screwed up over at Buickthunder. I was deleting the spammer accounts and deleted yours too.. :Dou:

    Please rejoin and I'll activate it. :beers2:
     
  10. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    D-con

    Yes, Looks like soft springs and Preload surenuff.
     
  11. 69 MAN

    69 MAN Active Member

    I have always liked the stock skylark rear springs .Softer ride, better bite when lanching . :3gears: :laugh:
     
  12. staged70

    staged70 RIP

    My 70 BB car ran a best of 1.58 60 foot. It actually lifted in the back and front. It also had a leaf spring set up on it. Most times a good hook up will allow a car to squat and this is probably the best for all around use but on the track squatting is lost time.
     
  13. the_figmint

    the_figmint Member

    By having the vehilce squat=wasting energy, energy that could be building momentum. Having the rear suspension lift ensuring that energy is being tranphered to the tyres=planted tyres, and not being absorbed by the suspension. ya woodn't think it would make a diff but it does.:Brow:
     
  14. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Lift is caused by the IC setting. With STOCK 4 link Buicks like some of ours, I've never seen LIFT without IC alterations..
    My cargo springs (5385) were just too stiff to let the suspension work, so the slight squat (softer 5379 spring on the rear) is what my car wanted.
    The difference ...spin 500 feet or 0 to 5 feet.

    FOR SALE: Anyone want a nice pair of GS and Chevelle HD MOOG #5385 rear Cargo springs for 1/2 price?
    I'm serious, I sure don't need them, even if they are world famous and most popular, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  15. CJay

    CJay Supercar owner Staff Member

    Gary, could you measure the uninstalled height of those 5385's for me? Another member and I are having problems with the rear springs falling out when the rear suspension tops out. Just curious what they measure


    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=155502
     
  16. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Jason, there's a Moog spec chart here:
    http://bbb-carb.com/moog_Coil_Springs.htm

    You can get Moog springs almost anywhere, rockauto and Espo are both good sources.

    Good info Gary! I'll have to put to use.:TU:

    To compare:
    Stock 66 GS springs are #6033. They're short and stiff:
    free length= 16.44". rate= 370 lb/inch; wire dia=0.656"
    You recommended# 6204:
    free length= 18.61", rate= 265 lb/inch; wire dia=0.609"

    The 6204 springs will be compressed more when installed (storing more energy). On launch, you'll get more lift, and weight transfer!
     
  17. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Moog #5385 SPRINGS are 12.60" free height with .593 wire and I never had a problem with them. I used them to help keep my big MT's from rubbing the fender. These are popular springds and I've never heard of any problems with them. They will ride good and last forever.

    I now have 5379's with 14.75" free hight with .562 wire. The rear has more spring action and helps traction ,but their free height has raised the rear a little which helps prevent tire rub, but I prefer a low body for looks and even better bite.

    I'LL BE INSTALLING SOFT MOOG 5401, 13.25" REAR SPRINGS AND NARROWER TIRES.
    I'LL ALSO BE INSTALLING SHORTER 5230 MOOG SOFTIES IN FRONT.

    Go here for UPDATES:
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=213538
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  18. bob k. mando

    bob k. mando Guest

    Another member and I are having problems with the rear springs falling out when the rear suspension tops out.

    tether both axle tubes.

    18" of chain from a bolt on the frame to, i think, the lower shock bolt should do it.

    an upper spring bucket wouldn't hurt but as long as you don't leave too much slack in the chain it's not necessary.

    this will also be handy for when you need to jack the car up. or is that when your springs are falling out now? i suppose that's better than falling out on the road.
     
  19. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Update
    After adding more power, 4000 stall Coan converter, and needing consistancy:
    1. Added TA nohop bars.
    2. Viking warrior rear shocks.
    Set at 8 clicks rebound going up. Set compression at 3 clicks going down.
    3. Poly body mounds, snuggled tight.
    4. Caltrac 90-10 front shocks.
    5. Global West del a lum front a-frame bushings.
    6 UMI rear trailing arms with roto joints.
    7. UmI rear braces. Must have braces!
    8. Hellwig tubular anti sway bar on axle tubes to frame.
    9. MT 275-60r15 ET Street pro
    10. Front left motor mount is secure!! Drive shaft loop installed. Truetrac in the differential.
    Running high 11"s. Oh what fun! Be safe.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2023
  20. Da Torquester.

    Da Torquester. Platinum Level Contributor

    Gary, can you tell me what the rear shock tower brace is for ? My car runs 11:50s. Do I need it ? Thanks.
     

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