I thought I would share some information we currently discovered while doing some recent dyno testing. We built an engine using total seal top compression rings, I have used total seal second rings before , but never the top groove. The engine ran fine through the break in and initiail power pulls. When we really started to push the thing, started getting it over 5000 rpm, we started noticing that the horsepower would fall of and we would start blowing oil out the dipstick tube. We ran leakdown tests on the engine and found the leak down to be right at 2% all the way around. Everytime we would try to push this engine over 5000 rpm, we'd get oil all over the place. The higher we went , the worse the problem got. This thing was putting a huge amount of pressure nto the crank case, it would even blow thew oil breatheres off the valve covers. We pulled the heads and thought the copper gaskets were leaking, re-installed them and re-ran the engine. Same problem. It turns out what was happening was that the top rings were butting, after lots of phone calls to various people and finally even total seal, it was determined that the problem was that the top total seal ring requires a much larger end gap than a conventional ring, total seal told me that they are now recommending .0065 to .007 gap per inch of bore, the instructions we got with the rings indicated .005 per inch of bore, This means that .021 ring end gap that we used was way too little, what we needed was more like .030 to .032 of gap. The guy at total seal told me they had run into this same problem recently and they have since changed the recommended gaps on their spec sheet. In the time we ran the engine , it destroyed the top rings, they sent me a new set, free you ask? no way, they just discounted the price. Of course we had to do a complete teardown of this engine and everything that that involves, re hone the cylinders, all new gaskets. This has been a very expensive experience, but you have to do what you have to do. The reason for this post is not to trash total seal, but to pass on information about these new rings, if you are using the new top total seal ring, make sure you gap the top ring wider than normal. We were also told to increase the 2nd ring gap to .024 to .026. The guy at total seal said if this had just been a mild street motor of 300 or 400 horsepower, we probably would not have had the problem. Jim Burek P.A.E . ENTERPRISES 02/25/02 I was contacted by total seal corporation today and they have decided to comp me a set of rings for this engine, this was welcome news to me. However, the original point of the post about this problem was not to complain about the total seal company, it was to help other builders who may be going to use these rings and may have the wrong information with them. I have talked to at least one person who has an engine on the stand with these rings and will do a teardown to re-gap his rings. The issue of whether the rings got replaced or not really never was an issue, the cost of the rings is nothing compared to the cost of completely tearing down the engine and redoing everything because of what happened. Actually at this point I have high regards for total seal corp, they have identified a problem, which at least shed light on what happened , which to me was a big issue. Nothing worse than having to tear down an engine and not being able to identify exactly what went wrong. The guys at Total Seal want me to contact them after we re dyno to se how it goes this time. Jim Burek P.A.E. ENTERPRISES
That was a bad call on the part of Total Seal... They really should have comped you out a set of rings... Maybe a couple sets for all the trouble. After all, they send 'em out at manufacturers cost, write 'em off on taxes, and if nothing else, it's good business to treat a reputable engine builder like you with a little more respect and consideration. Treat all their customers with respect and consideration...... "Oh yea... We sent out a bad set of instructions... Ou fault, sorry... Would you like a new set at a discount???" Give me a break! Jim, send that original set back to Total Seal, and tell them there was a "defect in the material and workmanship"... The instructional material that came with the rings, and the workmanship that went into those instructions!!!!!!!!
Total seal Aren't they conserned with "repeat business" They should be. Everyone on this board will think twice about total seal now. Josh
Jim Boy I sure am glad I saw this post! I immediately dug out my set of total seal rings and checked the instructions in the box. It reads as follows: "suggested ring end gap for top ring is .004" per inch of cylinder diameter(.016 for 4" bore)." "suggested ring end gap for second ring is .003 per inch cylinder(.012 for 4" bore)." Then instructions in the bag w/the rings say: "These compression rings have been manufactured oversized to allow you to fit them to your bore. Check ring end gap at the bottom of the ring travel or the smallest section of the bore. "RECOMMENDED MINIMUM RING END GAP Engines 6,000 RPM and under Top ring .015" 2nd .015" Engines over 6,000,blown,fuelers,etc Top ring .020" 2nd .015" The instructions that you had are .001 to .002 per cylinder inch more than what my instructions read. Should I use the info that Total Seal told you? This is the first time I have ever heard of not using the top ring included with the set also.o No:
The set I am referring to here is the set that uses the top ring as the total seal ring, If yours is the second groove total seal ring, the specs would be different. I would call total seal and talk to Kieth for your application. Jim Burek
