Steel shim gasket coolant hole issues. 70 455 with 67 big port heads.

Ok guys, thanks for all the info, I'm getting back into this. I really want to get this solved! Total advance with the new vacuum advance seems to be about 35 degrees or so. I could take a bit more, but that shouldn't make it run hot in my experience at least.
Keith

 

"Total advance" came from race cars that don't have vacuum advance. So "total" advance is initial + centrifugal, without vacuum advance.

35 degrees of initial + centrifugal seems reasonable. 35 degrees of initial + centrifugal + vacuum is nowhere near enough. The vacuum advance should typically add another 10--15 degrees on top of the "total advance".

 

Ok, bears checking again, though with this much advance I wouldn't think I'd get overheating, though no doubt there would be performance losses without sufficient advance at speed.
However, FYI, it does very slightly ping on 91 octane gas under full power when hot, like on the highway.

Currently the car is running much cooler and is quite drive able now in mid 80's ambient temps with the AC on in the 55- 70 mph range. What made a big difference is the re installation of the high capacity water pump. When I had it on before it didn't seem to do much, and I was concerned there was an issue with it, now with the four core rad it needs the extra omph to move it through.
I still have a 160 stat in it now it typically runs 190-200 driving as described. This is still fairly easy driving considering the power the car has so it hasn't yet been seriously challenged.
So though it is much more usable I still don't feel it is right.

One though I have is putting an HEI distributor on it from a later model 455, for better timing and hotter spark, but I'm not sure that is the root of my problem.
Thanks for the response.
Keith

 

Running 30--40 degrees above the 'stat rating means the 'stat has lost control of engine temperature.

SOMETHING--or several somethings--are very wrong.

Did you ever fix your grossly-retarded initial + centrifugal ignition timing?

Fix what you have before you introduce more variables. A properly-tuned and good-condition Genuine GM/Delco HEI is a fine ignition, but I'd concentrate on adjusting the existing distributor first. Cheap knock-off HEIs are more trouble than they're worth.

 

Yes, the timing a very close to correct a bit advanced now, though I would not have described it grossly retarded. In typical driving I get the slight pink under hard acceleration when hot, and it kicks back sometimes when restarting hot, so the timing is definitely not retarded.
I agree I don't want to mess around with too much at once which the reason I'm trying to get anything sorted.

My point was I still don't believe it is cooling the way it should and getting back to my original question, could the extra cam and bigger valves cause it to run lean? At the most basic, if it runs too hot, either the engine is generating too much heat, or it cannot get rid of it. With the four core high density rad I think it should should have more than enough cooling capacity for all but the most extreme conditions.
Everything is in good condition the carb is correct and rebuilt.

Or what else could be going on in there. I did not reassemble the engine as I usually do, but it was done by a very reputable builder who has experience with BBB's.

Other than just wanting everything on the car to be correct and working well I am considering driving it to the BCA National next summer in Oregon and I live in Ontario Canada. To do this everything needs to be up to snuff. Gas cost is a separate issue of course, purely my choice if we drive the Electra or one of the more fuel efficient ones.
I've never not had a car on the show field at a National, so I really don't want to drive one of the modern ones.
Keith

 

What is the current initial timing, centrifugal advance amount (at what RPM), and vacuum advance amount?
Ping and kickback are NOT guarantees of sufficient timing, especially when the engine is running too hot. They could be a symptom of overheating, not a symptom of adequate or excessive advance.

Cam, maybe. Bigger valves, no.

What is the cranking compression pressure? Was the cam degreed when it was installed, or was it shoved in "dot-to-dot"?

There's plenty of ways to screw-up a radiator. Is this a 4-core copper/brass rad, or a 4-core aluminum rad?

"Correct" for a Stage One engine, or "correct" for something else.

WHO rebuilt it? Was it rebuilt from a single core carb suitable for the application--or was it "production lined" from multiple cores, all thrown into a pile and then reassembled mix-and-match style?

What fan, fan clutch, and shroud are installed?

 

To answer a few questions, this is the correct carb for the original 430, I checked the carb number at the time. I rebuilt it and I have done a number of carbs, so I'm not a rookie. But this is part of my question, does or should the carb be recalibrated now with the slightly mod engine. I was told no as we were going through the rebuilt, but now I'm wondering.
I know the rebuilds you are talking about, and they can be lousy but from the numbers this doesn't look to have been one.

These are stock units, and appear to be in good condition, the clutch original clutch was bad and replaced with a NOS one which was good.

This is a brand new 4 core brass rad, built by a reputable shop.

Don't know the compression right now, and I'll double check the timing, but these symptoms are happening at normal temps, not when it's overheating. I am well aware that elevated engine temps excaberate this. But the timing was at spec when we last set it up. The timing definitely was not where is was supposed to be previously.
On Friday I have to do a bunch of driving and think I'll drive it and see how it behaves. Temps are supposed to be mid 80's here and I have quite a lot of high climbing to do.

 

Well I am not reluctant to do so, as I have, and a mechanic friend and I worked on it and he checked the timing because I was getting unsure of my light and he said it looked good. I do have a dial back unit and I know how to use it.
I'm not an inexperienced car person either, I have many years working on them and doing restorations too.
I will recheck it with my light and see what I get. I also tend to be a bit old school and go by feel and driving of it which it ultimately the goal. But this overheating issue really has me bugged, which is why I'm here.
There was a timing issue which I didn't know about till we got into it, the vacuum advance unit and it had slipped a bit too. So it wasn't set up as well as I did think it was. OK.
I have a couple of other dead puppies (cars) to deal with but I'll try to check out the timing on the Electra this aft.

 

Does your balancer appear to be in good shape? Perhaps you are running retarded timing and your balancer has slipped? Wouldn't be the first time!

Also when checking your timing are you disconnecting/plugging your vaccum advance to check mechanical timing? Then reconnecting the advance to check total timing (mechanical+vaccum)?

 

Unless your distributor has been re-worked total centrifugal advance will not be all in at 2500....more like 3500-4K. You need light springs and a brass limiter bushing to get all in at 2500 to check it. (the stock limiter bushing is usually long gone since we are dealing with 50 yr old stuff in most cases)
I've seen people check it at 2500-3000 and they say they have 30-32 but then 4 more degrees are waiting to come in and hurt the motor at high rpm.

 

THANK YOU! Saved me a bunch of typing.

 

Ok guys I checked it with it all in and my old dwell tach wasn't working, but it gave me about 38-40 all in and taking the revs higher didn't give me any more. When checking the book this puts it at the low limit as the book gives a range from about 37-46 degrees total advance. This is with the initial advance about 3-4 degrees, low idle, no vacuum advance of course.
Dwell reading is good too, previously (recently) taken from another unit.

More troubling is that the timing moves around and I discussed this with a mechanic friend who suggested it was nothing to worry about. My prior experience tells me that there are some kind of internal issues. This is a recently rebuilt unit with only a few thousand miles on it, but we all know what bad quality parts are in the market these days.
If I need to get yet another distributor I'm inclined to go for an electronic one. This is a high point survivor car and I otherwise want to keep it stock, but could compromise on this.

So makes the timing within spec, barely.

The other thing is I typically run 91 octane gas, as 93 or 94 is hard to come by in this area and extremely expensive when I do. I know these prefer the highest octane one can get.
Keith

 

Way too much! Need 30-32 w/o vac adv.