Specific Nitrous help needed

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by carmantx, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    ANY Nitrous help needed

    We will be working on adding spray over the winter for the race car. We are thinking 150 to 200 shot would be max for our engine. We want to push as far as we can on this engine, but not trying to explode it first pass.

    Can anyone give us some specific advice and correct information for how to set everything up? Chassis is ready, and the fuel system is in place.

    We like the look of the ZEX system.

    Engine info:
    464
    forged 10.25 piston
    Edelbrock aluminum head
    SPX
    950 pro form (going to 1050)
    Stock Crank

    Dyno'd just over 500
    currently shifting at 6000
    Running 11.17 @ 119mph

    Thanks for looking. Ready for some 10 second time slips for a while, then of course, we will want a 9. That's how this works..
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2009
  2. jamie my

    jamie my jamie my

    hey i know you asked for specific info so i probably am out of line since i have not personally used nos, but have many friends who have, with good success some without,are you looking for out of the hole mid track or end of the track hit? a buddy who street raced a dodge went through 1 to 2 sparkplugs per every three runs ran low 11s, with lots of tuning issues .have you thought of running alcohol for a more consistant tune and run? personally i think this will give you what you are looking for maybe less tuning issues? just food for thought jamie
     
  3. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    thanks Jamie.
    We are looking for any information based on experience. I know some people here spray their BBB. Hoping some will help us out.

    At this time, we are thinking spray from the start for the whole pass. Alcohol could be a possibility, but we are also making this car street legal.
     
  4. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    First of all, I'm not a fan of ZEX, they would be toward the bottom of my list.

    What are you thinking about? A plate system? Spraybars in the intake? nozzles on each port? Are you thinking progressive? Dual stage? Single stage?

    And you leave out the most important engine info- fuel delivery and ignition! What do you have (or will you have)?

    -Bob C.
     
  5. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    Thanks Bob. That's what I'm looking for.

    Fuel delivery is an Aeromotive A2000 with -10 line to the regulator and the return. With the boost referenced regulator.

    Ignition is MSD street fire box with rev limiter to the stock type distributor with MSD internals.

    We are not stuck on Zex by any means, and need some referrals of what is a good system and all the components we would need to do it right.

    As far as the method, not sure. What is recommended? We are trying to understand what has worked for people and what is the best way to set this up to try to eliminate potential issues and problems. Then we will build it that way.

    Thanks Bob.
     
  6. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    Well there's a lot to cover here, so I'll see what I can do.

    The cheap & dirty way is a plate system with solenoids. Lots of people do this with no problem. As long as it's a fairly small hit, this should be okay. If you get into a bigger shot, you have to watch out for distribution issues.

    If traction is somewhat of an issue, some people use a dual-stage system and some people use a progressive system. If you think about going this route, it changes things so I'll assume you aren't.

    If you want more than about 125HP, you might want to consider having some nitrous bars put into the intake manifold. Alternately, there is a "spider" system that has fantastic distribution (see [http://img208.imageshack.us/i/ronspider2.mp4/ for a video of a progressive "spider" system). A standard plate system usually has a front-to-back spraybar arrangement, but I really prefer a side-to-side setup. And, if you don't mind doing the work, you can put nozzles on each port of the intake for best distribution (perhaps 8 x 25HP).

    Sounds like you have the fuel & ignition system covered. But why do you have a boost-referenced regulator? Are you planning to run a supercharger or turbo? That would change things again.

    Is this system one that you'll be using frequently? Or just a couple of times per year? How do you compete - brackets or heads up?

    My initial thought it just to put on a NX plate kit (100-150-200HP), but there are other things to think about before I jump to any conclusions...

    -Bob C.
     
  7. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    thanks again Bob. Keep it coming.

    we race this car a couple of time a month from february to November. We will use the nitrous quite often for some good 10's or better time slips and for the fun. May not use it to bracket race but would for heads up. We think the suspension will be there for full spray at the launch.
    We want to set up a system with good distibution to eliminate problems if possible.. I will look at that link.
    We have a boost regulator to prepare for a turbo build coming. This spray will get this motor where we want to be for now. So this nitrous system will be for this engine now, and we will restructure when we get to the turbo setup in a few years.

    thanks again.

    I guess I am asking, if you were going to set up the intake system, what is the best way?
     
  8. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    If this system is only going to be "temporary" (i.e. for a year or two), then a simple plate system for up to 200HP should be sufficient.

    In addition to the basics, I'd recommend:
    1) A fuel pressure switch that kills the nitrous solenoids if fuel pressure drops
    2) An extra bottle
    3) A bottle heater and pressure gauge (to maintain consistency)
    4) Maybe consider a 15# bottle instead of a 10# bottle for steadier pressure (but takes up more trunk space)

    Let's take this one step further. What kind of turbo system you gonna run? Since you are going down the nitrous route, you might also want to think about using nitrous as an intercooler. Injecting nitrous at -128 degrees F is a great way to intercool a turbocharged setup... How serious are you about turbocharging?

    -Bob C.
     
  9. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    So NX is your brand of choice? With a plate system. I don't think we want to go over 200 with this engine. It needs to stay together long enough to get a turbo motor built.

    We are serious about the turbo, just don't know if we are going 350 or 455. Tyler will build a buick though. He reads and studies the nitrous and turbo information, I am just trying to learn from other angles also so we can get our heads together and hopefully build something fast and reliable. We don't want to duplicate other peoples learning experiences. That cost too much money. I know Tyler is wanting to utilize nitrous with the turbo at this point.

    We are building a firewall forward mock up of our car to start working on the header build to feed the turbo. Tyler has thought all along we would build a 350, but now sort of leaning toward 455 due to available parts for the bottom end. Single turbo. We will probably build a single turbo set up for the 350 in the red car for street driving and work out the small details with that for the race car.
     
  10. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    Well NX is my choice amongst domestic suppliers. The video link I included above is from a European supplier who makes much, much better stuff, but they are pricier and since you are only looking to do this for a few years then it's probably not worth it to spend the extra money. If you were gonna make a "serious" entrance into the world of nitrous, then I'd recommend them instead.

    The biggest concern I have is the spraybar configuration (i.e. front-to-back instead of side-to-side) but otherwise I'd just go ahead with a NX system.

    If you are thinking about combining the nitrous and turbo (which has some great merit), then it might be worth considering the fancier system.

    And since you asked for my "learning experiences", here is what I learned the hard way:
    1) Don't trust a wideband oxygen sensor for tuning nitrous. ONLY read the plugs.
    2) Heat the bottle, but don't overheat it. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

    -Bob C.
     
  11. Tyler Northcutt

    Tyler Northcutt Just an old pile of parts

    Does the european nitrous company have a website? I would like to take a look at pricing, and what they have.

    Thanks!
     
  12. bigdawg70

    bigdawg70 1984 Buick Regal

    We have a zex plate on a car and have had no problems. First off i would ditch the boost regulator and get 2 holley regulators for now. One for carb and one for nitrous fuel as they will be set differently. They are cheap inexpensive and work well. second you will need to go at least two step colder on the plugs up the octane im guessing you may be using 110 so go to 116. Also you will need sum form of retard for the timing if your goin to use the 200 shot i would recommend at least 8 degress of retard. if your not use to nitrous i would recommend instead of trying to shoot out the hole roll out pull second and spray it using a hand activated switch. we can usaully pick up 8tenths just like that with a good tune. Do not i repeat do not use the manufacturr spec for fuel start high and work your way down( you nedd a good reliable fuel pressure guage to set it and check flow. Zex nos and nx all work its normally in the tune. Good bottlle pressure and corresct fuel pressure will get you where you need . with a 200-225 shot you should easily get a 10.30 out of it with out the need to spray it out of the hole good luck
     
  13. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    Tyler-

    Their website doesn't do a good job of explaining why their products are better, but here it is- http://www.noswizard.com/ . In North America, they are distributed by http://www.dialedinperformance.com/ . Their solenoids are very different than the US solenoids (and their controller is also much better than any US-based controller), and if you were considering progressive then that's the only way to go IMO. If you are seriously interested in something like that, I could go into some detail as to why it is a better product. But otherwise it sounds like a simple NX system (carefully tuned) could do the trick for you.

    -BC
     
  14. 70ApolloStaged

    70ApolloStaged Well-Known Member

    I have an NX Gemini twin plate with no spray bars. It sprays in annularly around the perimeter of the plate like the Zex deal but far better. Cured some distribution issues I was having. Like others have said, stay away from the factory jetting. Always waaaayyyy safe on the rich side. I run my system at 7psi with a dedicated regulator for the spray being a must. I got my nitrous coming in as I come off the transbrake(whoo hoo, that torque spike gets er going). I run a 200 shot myself.

    Ignition is important. I'd probably jump to at least a digital 6 box and gap your plugs to about .030. I play it safe and pull 9 degrees on VP116 but NX only says you need to pull 3 degrees per 100hp shot.

    You have plenty of fuel, so no worries there.

    One other thing to think about is activation. I like a happy button so I can get off/on the spray if it spins. If your not comfortable or have a lot to do when you run the car you can use a window switch to turn the system on and off at preset RPM's and only under full throttle. Very handy for new drug users.(lol)

    Also: Have you ever heard of NANO? It is an add on to a nitrous kit that uses compressed air in a side bottle to keep the pressure constant during the run. Makes a huge difference in performance since the pressure isn't falling throughout the run as your using up the contents of the bottle. Also allows you to run the bottle to the last drop without losing performance unlike normal setups where a smart person would change their bottle every run or risk having their ET drop run after run since the starting pressure is the same and you figure it'd be OK but, in reality, the pressure will drop worse as the bottle gets lower and lower in volume. Google them up and have a look see. I'll let the testimonials from other users do the talking but will add that I use it and won't go back to a normal setup simply because it saves me the hassle of changing bottles every run.



    My shop has an in house dyno and I added NX as a product line purely on the basis of how well it's done for me and my customers when it comes to tuning them in. However there are many kits out there and some of the more expensive ones like Speedtech are awesome. If your on a fair budget go with NX and you'll be fine.
     
  15. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    Thanks everybody, this is all really helpful information for us.

    Apollo, what do you have in the bottom end of your 464? girdled or anything?
     
  16. K0K0

    K0K0 Jamie

    Sorry Mark for jumping in.
    Bob what is it that you don't like about the perimeter Zex system?
    I don't know anyone who has run one or even seen one for that matter, they're all plate or nozzle systems around here.
    Jamie
     
  17. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    No problem Jamie. I hope others can jump it with any Nirous questions. Any information is good.
     
  18. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    A good nitrous system will shoot "liquid" in streams toward the intake valve. If you look at Zex's own publicity photos, you see that there are streams coming out (mostly in the corners) that are "fogging". You want nitrous to enter the cylinder as a liquid, not a gas. Also, ideally you want your nitrous stream to impinge directly on your fuel stream for better mixing & distribution, and the plate does a poor job of that. Just go with a regular plate (spraybar) system- hopefully one designed to have the nitrous spray directly at the fuel outlet in a manner to pull the fuel into the nitrous stream.

    I wish I had a way to make up some sort of drawing or something to show what I mean, apologies that I don't. And I tried a google image search without luck either.

    If you can visualize the spraybars in a plate, picture the top (nitrous) spraybar shooting nitrous at a "v" shaped angle, about 60 degrees apart (each stream to be 30 degrees from vertical, downwards). Then your fuel spraybar should shoot fuel out almost horizontally (with each hole in the fuel spraybar exactly below a stream of nitrous), so that when the fuel comes out it will be "hit" by the nitrous stream from above. Nozzles typically do this very well.

    -BC
     
  19. K0K0

    K0K0 Jamie

    Thx for the explanation Bob. I do now understand what you are explaining.

    Jamie
     
  20. 70ApolloStaged

    70ApolloStaged Well-Known Member

    I missed this post. Been a bit busy here at the shop. Sorry.

    Yes, it is girdled. Just a block girdle at this time. Looking at a halo and lifter valley girdle over the winter as I'm gonna take another power jump.

    Funny thing is, I originally built this block in 1990:eek2: for my Stage1 car. I hit it for 10 years with a 150shot and sometimes a 200 shot on that car with nothing more than a set of forged Speed Pro pistons and some solid Machine work by Eric Ruge. I would do a freshen up every 10,000 miles for grins. I am very strict about keeping RPM in a range that is well within the envelope of the engine's comfort zone. Without a girdle and with stock rods I used every part I could find to make power to 6000rpm and no more. I also was extra careful to control detonation when the engine was on spray as that will kill it PDQ. Basically I am a conservative racer. It's cheaper to add to an existing combo or freshen it up now and again rather than pick up chunks and start over. Even now, since the girdle and TA rods and good pistons, I limit RPM to 63-6400 on spray and 6800 on motor if I "have" to win. Otherwise it's as low as I can shift and still get the "W". Power increases have dictated the need for stiffer bottom end parts as I've gone along. The Big Block Buick is alot stronger than people give it credit for if you stay within whatever parts your using's envelope.

    I ran 10's in a 4000lb GS using a stock rotating assembly longblock with forged pistons, on spray. Anybody who has repeated trouble with their Buick running at least that needs to reevaluate how they run their combo.
     

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