Ring and pinion gear pattern

Discussion in 'Got gears?' started by Robs455, Mar 7, 2015.

  1. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    Hi all

    I'm doing the first time a gear swap from a 3.08 to 3.73 ratio.
    What you think about the wear pattern?



    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    Thanks for your help

    Robert
     
  2. steve covington

    steve covington Well-Known Member

  3. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    FROM what we can see it looks good. BUT you really need to use more teeth to get the pattern
    Reason- The pattern on all the other teeth coast and drive side will tell you if you have run out and if you have any bad teeth.

    We ran a gear - and the manufacture had count one tooth twice which means it NEVER touched the pinion...lol. the compound never got removed from the face of the ring tooth. :) It was a sight. It amazed the manufacture completely. NOT ME THOUGH as I know how these gears are made and WHY this stuff happens... WE ARE ALL HUMAN....
     
  4. cstanley-gs

    cstanley-gs Silver Mist

    Im no expert, but this is the pattern you should see

    [​IMG]
     
  5. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Too deep.... Your not getting a full complete face swipe like Robs455 - I would take Robs455 pattern over the one your picturing all day.
    What backlash setting do you have with your pattern? What pinion depth shim?

    Jim
     
  6. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    Hi monzaz glad to see you here. First pictures wasn't with load on the gears.

    Here with load:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    After this i added a 0.005 shim on poinion:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Than my mistake i realized that the backlash was to big 0.017" so i do corrections to 0.007" which is to tight for the gears ( recommend 0.008"-0.012")

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What should i do next ?


    Thanks

    Robert
     
  7. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Ok, First off if I am to help you - Every picture needs to be labeled as at to its pinion shim complete thickness (IE .038 ) Then you need to tell me what backlash is on the ring to pinion mesh with a dial indicator. EVERY TIME EVERY PICTURE.

    NEXT you should always be sure your carrier is properly preloaded if you can pull the carrier in and out by pulling the ring gear and removing it by hand with a tug....I DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH PRELOAD. If you are pounding the shim pack in and bending cracking or marring the edge of your shims you are too tight.

    It is essential on every change you make you be consistent as possible with all these things and keeping dirt from getting under the shim packs of the carrier and pinion.

    The one picture that says with load.... (what are you loading it with? ) It is not terrible But I really need the tech stuff to help better pinion shim thickness and backlash.

    Also do not forget to check all your gear teeth... You can easily find problems of run out or a bad cut tooth by viewing all the teeth with compound. You are only doing 4-5 teeth go around and around and see what the negative affect will have also.

    Coast side appears to be a bit shallow on the next picture with load

    The one where you added .005 it got too deep. BUT since you did not tell me what your backlash was I can not tell you if you had an issue with too much back lash causing this issue...??? Now you said you had .017 so I do not know if that was on all the patterns you gave or what??? SEE why I can not help here...Your all over the place. :) (have to be consistent

    KEEP your backlash at .010 for checking your ring and pinion patterns.... I have found that most gears set-up very nice there. THEN if you want to tweak it tighter for more drag race or stick shift event running you can.

    SO I would say IF you can remember your thicknesses tell me... BUT I would start over at .038 .037 and lets start from the beginning clearer. :) Jim

    REMEMBER THE PRELOAD IS CRITICAL TO MAKING THIS HELP WORK. IF YOU HAVE A CARRIER THAT IS SLOPPY IN THE HOUSING LEFT TO RIGHT I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO HELP YOU GET YOUR PATTERN IN AS THE PATTERN WILL BE INCONSISTENT AND ALL OVER THE PLACE.

    Jim
    J D
     
  8. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Last 2 pictures are definitely too deep.
     
  9. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    Ok monzaz i will give u all the numbers that are required. Im very thanksful for your help and i will do my best to get the info's which you need
    The preload is the same like original, I must still hammer in the shims and there is no change to get them out by hands. And I can feel the the preload resistance while im turning the ring gear without preload on the pinion.
    I think its a good point to say how i rotate the gears. I use the drums to get load on the gears, i would say near 30 ft/lb and rotate the pinion forward and back 2 times.

    Here are the first pictures:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Ok well I would NORMALLY say .042 is too thick BUT the drive side (first picture appears to be pretty good. And the coast side in the same picture looks pretty good. Now onto the second picture- coast side appears to be too shallow...???

    So it appear that the gear pattern looks better by the big eaton window compared to the back smaller window. Yes? Jim

    Little confusing with that. You did not change anything on the 2 huh?

    Rob, What happened to the VERY FIRST pattern you came up with?

    Stop with all the drum dragging etc. Just concentrate on the gear set-up. try .010 and see what the pattern looks like - I have NEVER set up a 12 bolt Chevy with a .042 gear set... .035-.038 almost every time with any brand gear. I AM NOT SAYING it is not possible that this is correct just very uncommon.

    When you say you hammer them in BUT can still remove the posi by hand? Or am I reading this wrong? Jim
     
  11. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    The first picture is 0.039" and with 0.017" backlash and turned by the pinion with only the preload on the pinion bearing.

    Now the last two pictures that i have posted:
    On the first pictures with the good driver side and below a good coast side, the coast side was with a less shimed pinion 0.003" and backlash was 0.017" --> that was the first try.
    Sorry for the confusion about the pulling with hands out, i mean there is no chance (wrote change) with hands to get them out.

    Here are pictures with the same setting with rotate the axle and only preload on pinion resistance on the gears:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What now monzaz?
     
  12. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Well it really is not a bad pattern ...BUT it just goes against my 12 bolt history .

    I still like the .037 at .017 better...LOL. You can not run the ring and pinion at .017 backlash... What brand gears are these again?
     
  13. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    The gear brand is summit racing. The 0.042" was measure with a digital dial caliper, so you can be right with your history also by my case and my numbers are wrong.

    Next i will check for new shims combination to go with a more backlash 0.010"-0.014". Again thanks you for your support:pray:
     
  14. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    today i tried another combination, 0.003" less pinion shim and this gave a 0.010 Backlash.


    Combo 1 = 0.041" Pinion and 0.08" backlash
    Combo 2 = 0.039" Pinion and 0.10" backlash


    Here is the pattern:


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    Which combo should i use?
     
  15. monzaz

    monzaz Jim


    WELL THAT EXPLAINS everything. Summit brand gears are the bottom of the barrel gears. AND the reason why the gear is so far off the normal depth distance. LOL.

    Go with the .041 .008 - .010 Just looks more center in the middle of the gear. Going by the dry spots on the gear faces. Run it till the wheels fall off. :) Let me know if the gears hum. Usually no matter how well you set these gears up they will sing some. See how we did. crossing my fingers for you.

    The gears will hold up fine they are just difficult to set-up with pattern AS YOU CAN SEE... And noise factor is high on these. I think they buy all the OFF gears cheap . You know what I mean...
    Jim
     
  16. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Where did your .041 .008 go? Jim
     
  17. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry with 0042" is wrong i recheceked the distance with the micrometer and its 0041" and 0.08" backlash.
    A friend cooled the pinion down with dry ice and heated the bearing up 160F so he can drop easy down the bearing without tools.
    I will post the pattern with the final assembly. Thanks monzaz for your time :beers2:
     
  18. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    So this is the final assembled pattern, i hope it is fine for a cheap summit racing gear set...


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    what you think monzaz?
     
  19. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    So what were you using for a set-up bearing? See how things change when you use all the new bearings. I thought your other set-ups were with the bearing pressed on you were going to use. IF this was a used bearing I might have reminded you that a few thousands would be need to be removed from the shim depth when installing a NEW bearing.

    If I were to build this for a customer I would have to remove the bearing and go with less shim .037 ,038... So I guess the set-up bearing might have been the isue that I did not have the info on. SEE how hard it is to do stuff like this when you do not have all the info.

    It will run no doubt there. It is just not perfect enough for me.

    I can not copy and put the image into my paint program to show where the issue is. If you look in the valley of the ring base of the drive side you will see the sharp line longer at the bottom and as going up the gear face you will see it fades as you go to the peak of the tooth. This indicates too deep or too much pinion shim. Your close and it will run but it could be better.
    THis is your call. NO ONE likes this part of the final assembly - It happens here too Just the way things sometimes happen. Jim
     
  20. Robs455

    Robs455 Well-Known Member

    Hey Jim

    I made my choice after a short trip, the gear is really quit. I have a loud exhaust but i can't heard anything from the rear end, no singing and whining noises.
    I'm happy with it, i will let i be as it is. Next time i will do a better pattern as did you describe.

    Thanks again for your really helpful support! It was my first time that i saw a gear from inside :beer
    The 3.73 match up perfect with my new t56 magnum, its now a really fast car. A Friend with a 94 Supra 15PSI HP 400+ had no chance vs my Buick. :bglasses::3gears:
     

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