As requested this was copied from the BPG site. This is basically to answer Tony Roses question It came to my attention a few weeks ago that you were asking if the BPG would have a Survival Class at the 2012 BPG Nationals. There are several different types of these classes out there and they are very different, so the rules would depend on what you are looking to do with the car. I have started doing some research and this is what I found so far; 1. AACA The AACA has a survival class where they basically do not look at condition, but verify that the components of the car are correct for that year/model car. They do not check to verify the parts are "original", as in date coded correct, but do look at the date of the vehicle to verify the parts are correct for that particular time period. Also the finish on the parts is also verified as original, with at least 50% being correct. This type of judging would be done by 4 judges and takes something like 15-20 minutes per car. 2. The Camaro Club of America This class is by invitation only where participants have to pre-qualify their cars before they are allowed to attend. The idea is the cars must be of a certain caliber before they can be considered. There is also a fee of approximately $1000 to be paid if/when the car is accepted. Pre-judging qualifications include detailed pictures, information about the car, providing decoded build sheets and/or microfilm, and verifying that the interior/exterior colors and interior types match what is on the build sheets. (They must be exactly what the car came with, not only year correct.) This type of judging uses a 1000 point system where a group of judges spend something like 4-6 hours on each car. Not only is the car checked for part correctness for model/year/ & time period, like the AACA, but condition/cleanliness is also checked. Plus part numbers are checked and pieces of the car are removed to verify the numbers on some of the hidden parts. Basically these guys are doing all the work to give the car a Pedigree, so a future buyer will know the quality of the car he/she will be buying. These cars are often very low mileage originals that are then taken apart and restored to factory perfect condition. 3. Platinum Classes i.e. possibly Top Flight & Bloomington Gold I dont know everything about these classes but they are also invitation only, use a 1000 point system, charge a large fee for acceptance, do everything the Camaro guys do, plus verify all the part numbers as well as the date codes are correct. They also have to be driven to verify the vehicles are mechanically functional. Again these cars are often very low mileage originals that are then taken apart and restored to factory perfect condition. These are the cream of the cream. You can see from all this that setting up these types of classes can be very involved, especially when you take into consideration the time needed to get the info together to pre-qualify the cars for the last two types of classes, and to get together the information and judges needed to go over each specific car. Type 2&3 judging demands a huge amount of homework before the cars hit the field which is why they must pre-qualify them first. In the past we have placed survivor cars in with the 400 point Concours classes and they have done well. Until now there has been no need to create this class for the car show, but if needed it could certainly be done. My gut feeling is if we are going to build a survival class it should follow the AACA rules. This would support the majority of the cars of this designation, and would allow the owners to go to other events throughout the year. If the idea is to get someone to give a car a pedigree and go over it top to bottom, to verify everything is both part number and date code correct, this too can be done, BUT it would require spending a ton of time on a single vehicle and some type of compensation should be made to both the club and/or the people doing the work. Experts doing this for the Mopars, Chevys, Pontiacs, Fords, etc get thousands of dollars for this service, Buick owners should pay no less. Duane
Another option may be to have a "Vintage certification " available for these cars. To me that way you are not "competing" against any other car/owner/person. You are simply identifying what you have. Muscle car and Corvette Nationals offers this : They go to the extreme of having a lift to inspect the undercarriage as well. I realize It can be time consuming. But I doubt we would have 50 Buicks in this sinario either. Just another thought. Vintage Certification identifies your unrestored original car as having completed a thorough exhausting inspection process, which references factory standards, and at a level as certified by Vintage Certification Vintage Certifications levels are divided into four divisions:Vintage Legend- Cars that are 80%-90% unrestored in all reference areas. Vintage Legacy - Cars that are minimally 50% unrestored, in three out of five reference areas. Vintage Reference - Cars that are unrestored in at least one Vintage Reference Area.
Don, None of the cars in these classes compete against each other, all are based against a standard. The only difference is how "strict" the standard is, and the time involved to judge the cars. My main concerns are the amount of time needed to judge the vehicles, and having enough "qualified" judges to do the job right. It is one thing to ask people to spend part of a day judging the Concours Classes. (Which can add up to 3-4 hours each, and is itself a serious commitment of time for a 2-3 day event.) It is another matter entirely to "ask" people to spend an entire day, or possibly several days judging a few cars. At this point you are not asking them to give up some of their time, but are asking them to basically work and I mean work the entire event. Now you are asking them to spend their own money getting there, paying their own hotel bills, giving up their entire weekend working the event instead of enjoying it, plus using up some of their vacation time to do this. It's just not fair to ask someone to do this, and why would they want to? Believe me, I have worked many many car shows, between being a vender and helping run/organize events, and so have my friends, but we all end up with some time to enjoy the events. The bottom line is this, if the club/members want to do anything other then the AACA type Survivor class (as outlined above) then they have to step up to the plate and pay to have it done. I don't see any way you will get anyone to work for this length of time, and travel a couple hundred miles to do it, without some type of compensation. That's the facts. Duane
I for one would not expect someone to authenticate a car for free. That particular event charges $500. Which, would be well worth it for that type of certification. It might could be something offered as an "extra" on top of what the AACA judging does for a fee.( provided you have the manpower to do so). And could earn some $ for the examiner and the club. I think the idea of the survivor class is a good one. Now my Conv and Ken L GSX were judged in the 1000 Point Bloomington Gold date coded type standard. Ask Ken how much fun that is ou:. Quite different then our standard 400 point system. It was very enjoyable to have your car judged to that standard. And both faired very well :laugh:. DL
I really like the idea of a survivor class for concours, as there are more of these cars in the club than one might think. I really like seeing these cars and talking to the owners, often the original owners, and hearing the stories! It'll give these folks somewhere to have their cars judged other than concours. Perhaps the way to do it is to come up with our own judging standards for these cars so that it doesn't take a crazy amount of time to judge them. Example: one could look at Gary P.s car or the trailer hitch car, and in about 10-15 minutes or so be able to basically assess its basic originality.....emphasis on "basically"! If I had to guess, there would probably only be 5-10 of these cars in this class.....I'm glad that you're looking into this Duane, and for one wild be happy to assist you with it any way I can.
Chris, I agree there are more of these cars in the club than one might think, and the Club has considered building a set of rules for this class for years. (Every so often we do get requests for this.) Anyone who doesn't believe these cars exist only has to look at the amount of them that showed up at the GSX Reunion a few years back. Now that was a non-judged event, and I made it clear we didn't care if it was partially assembled, was pulled out of a barn, or was just a pair of fenders the owner could bring to the event, the idea was to bring it and have fun. The success of that event was all due to it being non-judged. Think of the pressure a GSX owner would have bringing a non-perfect car to an event, especially knowing how much it would be "picked on" once it got there. The owners of many of these cars had been wanting to bring their car to a big "Buick" show for years but would not due to the above reason, so when an "avenue" opened where they would be welcome with open arms, many jumped at the chance. Again the idea was to bring your car to a big Buick "block party", hang out with your friends and simply have some plain old fashioned fun with zero pressure. Now getting back to the classes, if we do this, my gut feeling is we do it in a way to keep it fun for both the owners and the judges. With that in mind I would propose setting up a set of rules that would go hand in hand with what the AACA has just developed for its members. This would allow owners the opportunity to also take their cars to AACA events and do well. This is exactly what we did with our "Concours Classes". They are basically an up-dated version of the AACA & BCA rules. By doing this it allowed the owners to "build" their cars to a certain level and NOT for a specific show. I won't go into the details, but when I set up "our" rules I made them a little more strict then the AACA & BCA rules to ensure our cars would do good at the other events. Lynn Gawel works for the AACA and I am sure I can get permission from the "AACA powers that be" to use a copy of their rules to develop a class like this for our event. I am not sure exactly what we would call it, because the Corvette Club owns the term "Survivior" but we could make it happen. I could also make it a little tougher so we would not get "spanked" while attending other events..................................and if the BCA gets on board with this type of judging, then we have the same ability to go to their events as well. Now all the above can happen at the BPG events. We can have the Concours classes for the restored cars, the Regular classes for the Drivers, Street Machines, semi-restored, and fairly un-restored vehicles, a "Survivor class", plus have the "Special Events" such as the GSX-Reunion, Stage 1 Re-union, "Big Car Bash?" etc. This should be enough for everyone, except for some idiots out there that build something like an "X-Camino" that doesn't fit anywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh well.:laugh: Now all that can be done, and could be done with the systems/organizations that are already in place. If you want to get into something like the "Bloomington" type classes that is another story. A friend of mine by the name of Greg Donahue developed a "Platinum" grade 1000 point judging system that was used to judge high-dollar Fords. It was again by invitation only and believe me they checked everything. They looked at correct part #'s, date codes, cleanliness, fit/finish, as well as original vs. reproduction parts. If a repro part was found then 50% of the points for that area was deducted. I remember him telling me they checked the number of ribs on the brake hoses, because the replacements/repro parts were very different. (I remember laughing at the time because I had replaced them on my 67 Mustang and knew exactly what he was talking about.) Now I could certainly spend a couple of months and develop a set of these rules, BUT there is not a Buick GS out there, that I know of, that would survive so why do an exercise in futility. The first thing I would check on a car would be the date codes on the 2-place spark plug wire retainers to see if they were correct. That and the date codes on the tires would probably knock the car right out of consideration. We can do whatever you guys like, but before I spend the time to do a 1000 point system there better be a car worthy of it, and the owner better be determined to have it judged, plus pay for the time it takes to do it. Duane
DL, What they did was put both"survivor" cars in Concours. Both ended up being Gold cars although one of them just made it. There is also a guy wanting me to build a class structure for these specific cars. I let him know how many participants I needed to do this, and he is working on it. Sorry but I don't remember his name, but am sure something will get posted on the board about it later. Duane
I'm that guy!.....I've got around 5 or 6 cars/owners so far that have said yes and will keep plugging along to get 10-12 or so....
See DL, He did pop-up.:laugh: Chris, Keep plugging away. If you get 10-12 confirmed commitments to be judged at our event I will produce a set of rules. I will even go so far as to explain how the rules will be administered so everyone knows how they will be judged. Also, I will need a list of these guys, with phone numbers and times to call to go over everything with them, and find out the year/model they have so we are prepared. If they are willing to do this, the least we can do is be prepared to judge them correctly. Duane
Duane, go ahead and add your date code book to my order. I need to verify the 2-place spark plug wire retainers dates on my car :laugh:. I'd bring my car if I could get it there.... PS Chris, are you going to keep trailer hitch til the next show ? :laugh::spank:. Thanks, DL
So far, yep.....it's showing itself to be a real good driver......life is too short to tolerate a bad one.
