Hey guys. I have noticed a difference in some trunk lids we have for the Olds. I have an original with a factory spoiler that is missing some punched holes on the underside of the trunk. The others have the holes punched. So, does anyone have pictures of their trunks with the bottom of the trunk lid visible? These holes are large, so they will be easy to spot. The holes don't go through the trunk, rather are punched in the bottom skin only.
John I dont have any photos at hand but do know about the differences you are referring to. There were two decklids on 1970 Cutlasses. The inner frame was the primary difference. I dont know when the changeover occured but the two early production 1970 442's I owned had the lids with the plain inner frame. When attempting to install a wing on the later version the retaining nuts have to sit on the side of one of the "holes" on the inner frame. Hope this helps
That's what I am talking about. I installed a spoiler last spring. The holes were on the sides of the inner frame holes. I would guess this car had a donor trunklid since there was evidence of former rust that had been replaced in the car. We just purchased a lot of parts from a 70 all original 31 from Wisc. This car was built in May which was one month newer than the one we restored last spring. This one from May had the smooth inner panel on the decklid. It looks much better with the smooth lid when a spoiler is installed. I just wondered if the spoiler cars had the smoother inner panel.
It was not an issue as to whether the car had a spoiler It was an early and late production design. Just like 70 fenders had the bumps and late 71 and 72 did not,otherwise same fender. Paul
Lots of 1971 changes were pulled ahead into the 1970 model year at the end in anticipation of the UAW strike in 1970 at the beginning of the 1971 model year. Knew it was going to be some wild times once we started building 1971's to get as many out as we could before the union closed the plants. It was really wild. I wouldn't be surprised if this fix was in that category and originally schedules for the 1971 at changeover.
Paul glad you and I agree that some early 71's had smooth fender lips. I remember the Green car and the Judge from Mo. that was a know it all and was always wrong. John
When I purchased my green 71 Convert in Mar 87 from the original owner,it had the original fenders on it. One with bumps, one without. Assembly date May 11,1971. My red 442 convert,Assembly date Feb 2,1971 no bumps on fenders. UPS W-30 assembly Feb 24 1971,no bumps. Paul
This fender bump issue cracks me up! I know some Olds guys that are so anal, they base their decision on if they buy a car or pass on it over these stupid ribs in the fendersou: Ribbed fender's=girls car? Ribbed for her pleasure:laugh:
Tom, If you had to find a set of front fenders without the crumple zones "bumps" along the top of the fenders you might not find this so funny. It took me years to find a decent set for my 70 442 conv. Used ones that need repaired are now going for insane money. Think about it this way, if the wrong ones are on the car and need to be replaced to make the car correct, how much work would be involved to replace them? Plus the cost of finding the correct ones. I had 2 sets of NOS ones with the bumps and refused to use them because of this reason. Duane
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Let me pass on a little more inside knowledge on the fender bumps. Both types may have been used on late 70's or early 71's. As I said above. The end of the 1970 model year was a very hectic time as we tried to get as many changes in place that were slated for the 1971 year "pulled ahead" into the previous year whenever possible. End of 1970 year wa really wild around there. But nothing as wild as the 1971 startup where we ran the lines "wide open" until we built so much junk that there was nowhere to park all these cars that needed repair or missing parts added that had been thrown in the trunk just to keeo the line running. We also upped the line speed at Lansing at that time to 96 cars per hour (net 93 buyoffs) per hour and ran 16 hours, 6 days. Doesn't take long to plug up the system the sometimes undriveable cars. We even started using railroad "dunnage bags" which were huge air filled "pillows" that were thrown between two cars so the one behind that would run could push the one ahead that wouldn't. Anything that was basically driveable was shipped to the dealers both in the month prior to the strike and the month after the strike as we got everything to the dealers that we could so they'd have something to sell. They didn't mind a few unfinished items in the trunk as long as they could unload it off the car hauler under its own power and make it into their service departments....and of course had the parts to fix them. So how does this relate to ribbed fenders vs non ribbed fenders and the possibility that a particular car had one of each either at the end of 1970 model year and the beginning of 1971? Prior to the beginning of a "normal" model change, the lines are stripped and the inventory that's left either returned to the warehouse or shipped to the service warehouse. They then restocked the warehouses with all the parts for th new model year in the warehouses, and in the case of large items like fenders, hoods, core supports, bumpers, engines, etc. they stuffed them in every nook and cranny in and under the plant. Sometimes they'd get buried (or forgotten) in the scramble. This especially was true on parts we made in the fab areas of Olds since it was harder to shut off the pipeline than on purchased parts. Also parts were approved for use in production at different times so the new design LF fender may be available before the RF etc. You get the picture. They had never heard of Just in Time inventory systems or even FiFO (First in, first out) at that time. They used the LIFO system (Last in, first out) and even in sometimes the FISH system (First in stays here). Hard to rotate stock with these huge wire baskets of large parts and nowhere to put them. Lots of stock was "discovered" and reorganized during that lockout strike. We were allowed to go in and out, but not carry anything or take anything out. Nasty times when a bunch of angry picketers decide to "frisk" someone. Fortunately that didn't happen often. But...with virtually nothing that can go in and out, a lot of work was doone inside my the salaried people first to clean up the mess of that first one month of running wide open. And a lot of stock was inventoried and moved around quietly with the electric Hi-Lo's that didn't make any noise. LOTS of parts were discovered hidden all over the plant that had been forgotten. If they were still usable on the 1971 models they got moved to the front of the line to be used first whe the strike was over. (We also cleared an area every now and then with a high-lo and attached a basketball backboard and rim to a wire basket, set it at 10 feet and played some really good bball out there. Always got caught eventually by security and upper management)...but that's another whole set of old war tales from the Olds plant in the 60's to 70's.....when it was fun. To say ALL 1970's used one type fender and all 71's used another would be a naive assumotion at the least. That may be the way it was supposed to be and even the assembly manuals would verify that, but I'll bets are off on those end of the year 1970's and beginning of the year 1971 cars. Not so much on the B/C and E cars (88/98 and Toronado as they were all new for 1971 and not many parts carried over from 1970). But the 1971 GM A body was a minor facelift change (called it a front and rear 6) which only resulted in changed sheet metal on the hoods, core supports, and bumpers. 1972 was even less of a change as it was never supposed to be and there were only a few months to do anything after the strike delayed the new 1972 A car and they postponed it for a year until the 1973 model. I'm sure what happened at Buick and Pontiac home plants was very similar, BOP plant cars probably had their own set of problems as they regularly "inserted" different parts from Buick ,Olds. and Pontiacs . Became a real mess for them if, for example, a part interchanged between say a Pontiac and a Buick one year and one of them made a change that dictated a new part, but the other one didn't and no longer could be changed. Sorry for the epistle, but it's a really complicated mess trying to say what is really correct on these cars and what's not. Knowing how they were built (right and wrong) might explain why some of these things are not cast in stone. That's kinda why I drifted away from the car shows and judging and will not take my original Ram Rod to many Olds meets. Always starts arguments. Not worth it anymore. More fun to race and enjoy them. Also why it won't be going to the Olds Nationals again this year and my 66 will be displayed in the new "race car" class and not be judged. Just like I do with the Ramrod at the Homecoming in Lansing (as long as there's not a race within an 8 hour tow that day). :bglasses:
Ok Now for my RANT on OCA Judging. I waited until I got a Master Judge to suggest a new class to the Head Judge , Bob Casey. I proposed a class similar to the gold class at GS Nationals with Judges who know the cars and would be paid to Judge. I suggested Judges for 64-67 performance and 70- 72 performance classes as a start. Even offerred to put up 500.00 per class to pay the Judge. All i got was we will think about it. This is BS and OCA does not want to have anything other that the peer judging. I can tell stories where the best car won because 1 of the 6 Judges knew that a 66 F-85 had different interior from a Cutlass . One lady Judge told my son that my 70 W-31 F-85 did not have the wipers hidden and could not be correct. I guess it will never change because it is supposed to be fun. It ain't fun when you get beat by a lesser correct car after you hauled yours 24 hrs to the show. John
I've always thought that Olds shows that *judge* are silly. Most of those judges don't know a Ram Rod from a RamCharger. And to have someone tell you that an F85 came with hidden wipers should have a ball-peen hammer taken to their left foot. PS - Dave, get off the Internet and get your butt down to my house to work on your '66. I'm starting to cut things up .......... :grin:
i enterred the w31 in an OCA meet here in Columbus last fall. there were 2 first places in my class -husb and wife won so were the 2 second place trophies,different husb and wife.ou: the nicest car in the class,a 70 post cutlass w31, left early. he probably knew it was a crock and split.
Duane, no disrepect here, but this is exactly the stupid crap I'm laughing at! If these stupid rib's make or break the sale of a car, somebody is in the wrong hobby:Smarty: They need to take their Pink Izod shirt wearing ass, and go join a yacht club. There is alot more to a car than ribbed fenders. I understand the quest for correctness and originality, but come on, pass on a beautiful car because of what the fenders look like ONLY when the hood is openou:
Tom, No disrepect here either, but after you have heard about it for the 100th time at some car show, you may feel differently. It all depends on what you want out of the car, if you are building a driver/racer then who cares. However if someone is trying to get top dollar selling a car and they are wrong, it would be a substantial expense to correct. The same thing goes with Buicks, I have seen many a nice car become a no-sale due to having non-correct parts on it. What if you were buying a Stage 1 with the wrong carb & dist, and the owner wanted ALL the money for the car, would you buy it? I always said, "If you change something on a vehicle, just remember that someone out there will know, and will probably tell you at the least appropriate time." Things like the above have a tendency to "sour" people's expectations at car shows, and the result is many nice cars are not brought out anymore. Duane By the way, I don't wear Pink Izod shirts or have a membership at a yacht club, I am a blue jeans, car t-shirt, sneakers toting kind of guy, but I do want the correct parts on my cars.
Who's to say what's correct? The general consensus? The guy who bought his from his neighbor's cabana boy whose stepdad bought it new? Books that paid no attention to where the car was built? Parts and Service manuals are the worst sources after about 1972 when GMPD was formed. Body and chassis service manuals had to be available before the first cars hit the dealers, so they only show what was right very early, usually 3 to 6 months before production starts. And that only applies to the home plant built cars when you start picking the fly **** out of the pepper. Changes were made continuously throughout the model year, so even an assembly manual is only correct if it's an end of the year updated issue with all the pages there, including the pages that were cancelled. I just heard that they're eliminating judging at the Olds Homecoming this year. Good. About time. It was all just a popularity contest anyway. I don't find that to be fun anymore. Much more fun to race them heads up.
:boring: :sleep: Uncle, I give up. I can see I'm fighting an uphill battle over a brand/type/model of car that I don't really give a darn about. I simply pointed out something that Ifeel is stupid and amusing. I didn't expect to get 10 paragraph replies to my 10 word sentences. I deleted about 10 paragraphs of my own before posting last time on this issue,because I didn't feel I needed to go on and on. I see now I should have stayed out of this topic, and let the Olds guys continue to beat each other over the head over crap like this. So if all the Oldsmodudes out there need ribs or no ribs on the fenders of a car to decide if it's junk or not, to each his own. I personally wouldn't pass on a quality car because of a reason as petty as this. What if the car was wrecked in 71 or 72 and was repaired with genuine GM fenders?? I bet this scenario happened quite a bit, which would be an acceptable explanation of a 1970 car having 71-72 fenders. And, if I were restoring a 70 that had been through the above scenario, I wouldn't replace two excellent fenders for these ribs. As far as passing on buying a Stage1 because of the carb/dist #'s, if the block # matches the car, thats good enough for me, and I wouldn't walk away over something as trivial as bolt on items, but I'm sure there is some pink shirt wearing dude(or dudette) that would:TU: just kidding:grin: I'm out, no need to respond back to me over this topic again, as I have realized I've opened my mouth in the wrong spot of this Bulletin Board on a topic that has nothing to do with me. My original post on this topic was done just to get a rise out of somebody with a pink shirt and bunched-up panties. I didn't expect all this hoopla,and I would have deleted my first post before it got out of hand. Excuse me while I go slither back under my rock,I'm sorry:bglasses:
which condoms are more popular??? Ribbed or non-ribbed??? And Duane and Tom--tell the truth---you sneak into your garages at night in an Izod wearing one of those caps like Judge Schmales wore in Caddyshack Tom--I don't think anyone is getting too worked up anyway. I think what Duane is saying is,GIVEN THE CHOICE, most Olds nuts (ok most 1970 nuts) would take the flatridge fenders over the ridged ones. Should it be a dealbreaker at a show?....no...for the reason you mentioned, later collision damage, etc. (I don't think points should be deducted for that---but I know little to nothing about judging). I suspect what has happened is people have gone to shows and heard and watched the "regulars" sandbag the others by arguing that "X, Y and Z" are absolutely, positively, 100% correct and the "new guys" stuff isn't (when we know the new guys stuff is more correct or original.). The new guys walk away, shaking their heads saying, what a bunch of BS! Like lots of things, there are some things that you or someone else here may be 110% sure about (from experience) yet you go to one of these shows and they act like you are from Mars. You know you are "right" yet it is not accepted as such. Basic human nature (at least normal humans) makes you want to dig in and prove you are right. To add fuel to the fire they can pull out the "it's been this way for years" argument or "that's what everyone here has decided is correct", etc. From my experience, a lot of the times "everyone is convinced something is a certain way"...that's the best time to bet against them (crowd mentality, groupthink). I know---I'm another one of those anal thinking Olds nuts but what the heck. Was someone talking about a trunk lid here or something???? LOL
:bglasses: Well put, Patton. Tom: Before you brand us boviating, loquacious, very enthusiastic, Olds fanatics as undesirable, vermin (thanks for the word, Diego), try posting something likie this over on Moparts and let me know how pithy questions get pithy, succinct replies over there. :TU: :TU: :TU: Donny knows.
