ok its a thread not named Rick Crawford..lol. so where do we start..participation..what makes do we aim this at? What venue,time of year,organization? How do we get this out to whatever group we will "allow" to race against us. Maybe we should keep it to BOP's? food for thought..fish
Just like anything, it will take "steps" to get it to catch on to the "others". First it has to get it off the ground with the Buicks but I think it will catch on and spread since anything but Chevy/Fords gets blown away by money and parts availability. Better parts and combinations are starting to come together within the BOP world and it's only a matter of time where there will be a need to put the cars in a class that they can use what they've built for some fun. I lwould like to see rules that are in between the NSCA and PRO Edelbrock series. It shouldn't take much to lay a foundation. Just got to get things going soon so next year there can get be a turn out. The Mopar thing was just a future thing if were lookin for more cars to spank. It was just a consideration for the future. Just something spice it up once we get all our Buick up to speed. If things go well with the Buicks it would be great to see the class carry over to BOP. If we need more particpation what about AMC and possibly Mopars? But I don't want to get off on that type of thinking just yet. Keeping things under control for the first year will be important to keep things going. I'm all for nitrous, superchargers, and turbo as long as each has it's restrictions. I would like to see a few special features to keep peoples combinations together and to pull N/A guys into the action. Just have to see how it all works out. I have my ruff idea for rules ready but I am giving it a little more time to think it through. As far as bodies allowed, I would like to see 60-87 rear wheel drive Buicks allowed. Some turbo guys too but we'll see. Most likely there will be a set of rules thrown out for them and if they want to play, bring it! V-6's got some spankin' comin there way from all the years of abuse on the v-8 guys. :spank: All the more reason to run! :beer As for myself, I will be bringing the BOTTLE!!! SO look OUT!
Pro edelbrock extreme street is a good start. If we were to allow full out backhalf cars things will get out of hand.If you look at super street they are all tube frame back half cars and the turn out sucks because the average guy can't afford a 30k plus chassis.The chassis seems to be the best limiter you can put all the motor you want in it but if you can't put it to the ground what good is it.So I think the rear frame rails must be present in the stock location but may be notched for tire clearance.Look at nmra super street outlaw they are required to have stock rear rails and they are going 7.70 or faster on a 28-10.5 so it can be done with out a tube frame.I just don't want to see another class go the way pro and nsca super street has gone aka low turn out and only a few select high$$ teams win.If we could get a good amount of people interested we 'll have something here I know some pontiac and olds guys will be interested if we do go bop.I think we need to do a poll to see how many would be interested in this 10.5 outlaw class.
You can count me in, but we need to have base rules soon. I for one will have to build a car from ground zero. Anyone have a Regal for sale?
Kevin, Where does that leave the two of us then ? Your 66' is a tube car just like my 67' isn't it ? But at least you have a 10.5" tire on. I "could" pick up a pair too if need be...........
Dave That leaves us on the outside looking in.To keep costs down and competion better tube cars need another class.We are stuck in s16 for now.Maybe if this idea takes off we could get a outlaw headsup class for tube cars.
Good start ya'll... I agree on the chassis part, I dont mind tubular K members ,control arms,and whatnot,but the stock frame is a must to keep it all from getting outta hand. The old EZ street rules would take care of the chassis. I hate that we have 2 bitchin tube cars in here,we could match race o No: with those guys if they hang some weight maybe,fun maybe. The nitrous guys should beable to use all the nitrous they can hang on a motor to hang with the turbo and SC combos. Im not real good with turbos and sc to suggest what weight or boost controller to hang on em. I dont know how to accomodate NA cars unless maybe we allow them weight so low as to allow backhalfing???Maybe they would be the exception to the rule o No: . Do we kick this off in the Southeast,say Atl or Rockingham with maybe 2 months lead time,after we make it known on Pontiac and Olds boards. Gotta make sure it doesnt conflict with anyones events BOP encompassing. I think we should not make the rules so tight nobody wants to come..we can make tweaks along the way. 1st: its all on 10.5 tire,one class. The differentiation between cars can be accomodated with weight. Base weight will be 7.5 lbs per cubic inch. Iron headed cars have to get a break 75 lbs maybe? I'd say 100 just because I have iron heads and theyre lame,and I would even say that if i had aluminums,coz i will.NSCA rules for ezs showed a breakdown I got a rulebook somewhere. 2nd:Stock suspension only? Will this limit the field... no penalty for bolt ons like cal tracs etc. narrowing the rr. frame rails should be ok,its a spec tire class. Perhaps allowing shock relocation without a weight adder would be ok. Add weight for ladders (50 lbs). 3rd: we should agree on what engine parts allowed. Sheetmetal intakes? Split Dominators? Motor Plates? Whats legal and whats not? Im stoked about this and I hope i can have my car ready for it but either way it should be spectacular. Lets start talking to the other guys P & O and get thier opinions...LETS ROCK.....fish
Don't feel left out... Rules ideas.... this might be a little long...... I agree rules need to fit some type of national format since a lot of these class fall into local formats. SOO.....here's a general idea. It would be nice to see v-6's allowed with given rules, weight breaks and tire limitations. I think the gray area is weights, body, and chassis limitations. I would like to see a class like GSP without body limitation (60-87 Buick rear drive Buicks), good weight reduction, power adders, no full exhaust, and v-6's. I think back-halved cars wouldn't hurt the classes overall intentions but wouldn't want it to deter others with full frames from entering so it depends on interest. It does add to cost....Allowing fenderwells to be removed will assist with fire saftey and avoid a guy spending money to buy some if he doesn't have them any more. I'm not required to run them so I don't. But I would fabricate a set if I needed to. I also think that it should be held to 1/8 mi or we will loose more to motor failures and wont be able to keep the numbers up. 1/4 is fine but just conserned since MOST won't have the new block and there are a lot of street guys that could run nitrous or power adder but not though the 1/4. 1/8 to 1/4 doesn't change the winners often anyways. Just what I'm open for. I'm flexable as long as the foundation of the class is kept. With the new block soon to be out, it will hurt the class for those who cant afford it when running mi format. Anyone with the new block will have a clear advantage in all aspects. The main thing being reliability and how much power they will take without failure. CLASS DESCRIPTION Buick Outlaw is a heads up class designed for stock appearing Buicks produced 1960-1987 Buicks (BOP in the future). Vehicles in this eliminator are allowed ladder bar suspension. Stock front frame rails and firewall are required. Entries are permitted small block or big blocks with superchargers, turbochargers, or nitrous. All entries compete on a 10.5-inch wide sidewall non W' designated slick or 12-inch (tread) DOT-approved tire. No tire may exceed a 30.5 diameter. All Run, NHRA Sportsman Ladder, Pro .400 tree, Heads-Up. REQUIREMENTS AND SPECIFICATIONS BALLAST Removable ballast for the purpose of classification adjustments is limited to 100 pounds in an NHRA/IHRA-legal weight box. Maximum allowable removable/permanent is 200 lbs. Ballast must be bolted to frame or crossmember with a minimum of two inch diameter bolts per 100 lbs. Water reservoirs for use with intercoolers/aftercoolers are not considered ballast and are permitted. Must maintain 50% of the vehicle weight on the front tires. BODY The body must retain its original appearance and profiles. Original OEM body shell type and dimension required. Aftermarket fiberglass replacement panels are limited to the hood, hoodscoop, bumpers. OEM appearing replacements are allowed for other bolt on items as long as weight ratio and minimums are maintained. Aerodynamics - Taping of any parts of body, seams, or front end is prohibited. Bumpers - Stock appearing bumpers for body used made of any material permitted. Fender Splash Pans - Removable fender splash pans are acceptable. Fenderwells not required. Firewall - Firewall must be original and in stock location. Floor/Trunk Pan stock floor and truck pan required. No removeable transmission tunnels. Floor must be replaced with a minimum of .024 inch thick steel or .032 inch aluminum in areas modified for ladder bar clearance. Grille - A full-production grille is required for the body style used. Clear lexan may be used to cover the grill surface only. May be install on the front or back surface of the grill. Hood/Scoop - Hood is required and may be made of lightweight material. Cowls and factory type forward facing scoops only. May be liftoff. Blower/turbo entries may duct air from outside of vehicle, but entry point must be flush with outside lines of body. No ducts or scoops may be protruding into air stream on blower/turbo entries. No visible altercations to outside body part for fresh air. Hood scoop allowed for n/a but mounting flange on carbs or top of efi venturis may not be more than below bottom of hoodscoop opening. Hood/scoop must cover entire engine and induction components. Interior - Dash, stock-appearing steering column, and seats must be in stock locations. Stock-type gas and brake pedals in stock location are required, but pivot point may be relocated to the floor. Clutch pedal may be relocated and aftermarket pedal and linkage are permitted. Door panels, carpeting, dash, and headliner are required. If rear wheelwells are modified, they must be finished to factory appearance(painted). Upholstered aftermarket bucket seats are allowed. A full stock dashboard with instruments (aftermarket instruments are allowed) and controls. A heater is optional. The back seat may be deleted if it interferes with a rollcage. Lettering/Decals - Car lettering is limited to windows only. Wheel tubs - In order to clear legal tires, mini-wheel tubs are acceptable. Wheelwell Openings - The front wheelwell openings must be stock. The rear wheelwell openings may be enlarged to provide a maximum of 1.5 inches of clearance, as measured from the tire tread to the rocker panel in front and to the lower quarter-panel in back. Modified openings must be finished to factory appearance. Windshield/Windows - Must be OEM safety glass. ???FRONT Windows must be operative but closed during racing.??? Wings/Spoilers - Only factory available front and ???rear spoiler or wing for specific year/make/model of body used will be allowed????. Aftermarket rear wings limited to 12"??? BRACKET RACING AIDS Bracket racing aids such as optical sensors, delay boxes, stutter boxes, and throttle stops are not allowed. The application or use of any device, mechanical or electronic, that permits the driver to ascertain the position of their vehicle in relation to the starting line is prohibited. BRAKES The braking system may be upgraded. All cars must have front and rear hydraulic brakes. Automated brakes or any type of traction control is prohibited. Application and release of brakes must be a function of the driver's foot. Line loc permitted on front wheels only. Any other electric, pneumatic, or hydraulic device in the system is prohibited. CHASSIS/SUSPENSION Chassis - Front framerails must remain in the stock location and may not be altered for the purpose of providing tire clearance. Tubular crossmembers are permitted. If the stock frame is notched, it must be reinforced in a manner acceptable to NHRA/IHRA. Any strengthening members may be added to a stock frame. Front Suspension - Aftermarket direct-replacement components are allowed as long as stock mounting points are maintained on components and frame. Coilover shocks are permitted in stock spring location. Rear Suspension - Ladder bar, or modified stock suspension. Mounting points for stock type suspension may have multiple attach points for geometry change but must be in stock location. COOLING SYSTEM Radiator - must be mounted in stock location. No restriction on size. Water Pump - Electric water-pumps and drives are allowed. DRIVETRAIN Automatic Transmission - Any OEM type automatic transmission with torque converter is allowed. Transbrake is allowed. Aftermarket shifter allowed but any gear change must occur as a result of an internal function of the transmission or as direct action of the driver. Pneumatic, hydraulic, electric, etc. shifters prohibited. Manual Transmission - Manual gear type transmission w/ clutch add 200lbs to minimum weight. Clutchless allowed with N/A combos only, +200 lbs. Electric or pneumatic shifter not allowed. Rearend - Any automotive type allowed. ELECTRICAL The battery may be relocated. Electric fans are allowed. Battery may be relocated. Electric fans and water pump drive allowed. Charging system must be operative. ENGINE Engine must be Buick.???there is no displacement limit.???? Any internal engine modifications are allowed. Block - Aftermarket blocks are permitted. There are no restrictions on internal modifications. Engine Locations/Mounts - The block and heads must not touch the firewall. Firewall must be in stock location. Motor plates and solid engine mounts are allowed. Heads - Aftermarket cylinder heads are restricted to cast aluminum or cast iron. Adapter plates are permitted on intake. Oiling System - Any wet sump oiling system is allowed. Power adder entries may utilize dry sumps with a 100lb penalty. Naturally aspirated combinations may use dry sumps without penalty. Accusumps are acceptable, but mounting is not allowed in driver's compartment, outside of frame, or body. The front crossmember may be altered for oil-pan removal. Vacuum pumps are acceptable. Valvetrain - Any valvetrain may be used. EXHAUST All entries are allowed to use tubular headers. The headers must be connected to a working exhaust system with mufflers. Removal or modification of muffler internals is prohibited (no gutting). Exhaust pipe OD is unlimited, and the exhaust pipe must extend beyond the leading edge of the driver's seat with the exhaust directed to the side by means of a turndown. Mufflers also required on turbocharged entries but exhaust may exit behind front wheel. FUEL/DELIVERY SYSTEM Delivery System - Fuel cells, electric fuel pumps, pressure regulators, and any line size is permitted, but the fuel pump must shut off with a master electrical switch. Fuel - Only gasoline is allowed. The class association reserves the right to check gasoline at any time during competition. The addition of chemical additives intended to alter the makeup of the gasoline for increased performance is strictly prohibited. During fuel check, a competitor must identify the brand of gasoline being used. The sample will be considered illegal if it does not match the baseline results (ex. color, dielectric reading +or-.2, and chemical tests). Failure to pass fuel check is grounds for disallowance of the run during competition and disqualification from the event during eliminations. ***Possibility of spec fuel required to maintain ability to check.*** IGNITION Aftermarket ignitions, magnetos, multiple-step rev limiters, electronic-conversion kits, crank triggers, and external amplifier boxes are allowed. INDUCTION Carburetors - Carbureted engines limited to a single commercially available four-barrel carburetor. Naturally aspirated engines may run 2 four barrels without penalty. Split carburetor is not allowed. Any other modifications to the carburetor are allowed. Fuel Injection - Fuel injection limited to electronic type, either throttle body or multi-port injection. EFI engine limited to four, two, or one venturi in one housing. Maximum area allowed is four venturis 2.125 inches or equivalent single/dual venturi arrangement. EFI housing may be grouped similar to carburetor or inline. Intake Manifold - Restricted to commercially available cast intake manifold except as outlined. Cast intake manifold is allowed provided it does not have any external modification to air flow areas. Cast intake manifold may be internally modified. Naturally aspirated engine is not assessed weight adder for fabricated sheet metal intake or cast. The class association reserves the right to add weight penalties to nonconforming manifolds. Nitrous Oxide - Nitrous oxide is allowed but use is limited to only one of the three types described below. Nitrous oxide MAY NOT be used in conjunction with supercharger or turbocharger. Commercially available blanket type warmer accepted. The use of any agents other than nitrous oxide as part of, or mixed with, this pressurized fuel system is strictly prohibited. If the entry is teched at a non-nitrous weight break all nitrous oxide lines, fittings, solenoids, and bottles must be removed before car is allowed to pass tech. Type One: Wet Flow - This is a plate system for carburetor or throttle body injections. The use of 2 plates allowed. Spray may aim at runners but fuel/nitrous delivery hardware (nozzles, spray bars, etc) must be contained in removable plate(s), mounted directly between the carb or throttle body EFI and the intake manifold. No portion of a delivery system may extend below the bottom of its own plate. The use of 2 stages with multiple solenoids for current interrupters allowed. Type Two: Dry Flow - This is a plenum delivery system for multi-port fuel injection. The use of a plate system is optional but may not be used in conjunction with the following plenum delivery nitrous oxide injection systems. Fuel and/or nitrous delivery system may be plumbed directly into the EFI unit itself but no portion of the delivery system may be located more than 3-inches downwind from a fully opened butterfly of the throttle valve. The use of 2 stages and multiple solenoids for current interrupters allowed. Type Three: Single Stage Fogger - This is a single stage port injection nitrous system for carburetor, throttle body injection, or multi-port EFI. For carburetor, only one dual port (nitrous oxide/fuel enrichment) nozzle per cylinder located in each port runner of the intake manifold is allowed. For throttle body and multi-port EFI, only one nitrous oxide nozzle per cylinder located in each port runner of the intake manifold is allowed. Fuel enrichment is to be accomplished through the EFI fuel injection nozzle. Two nitrous delivery solenoids are allowed and must be dedicated evenly between the engine's cylinders. Two additional solenoids may be used to purge the system to the atmosphere. There may be two additional solenoids positioned in the nitrous delivery lines outside the engine compartment for interrupter activation. Bottles - All bottles must be securely mounted. Bottles located in driver's compartment must be equipped with the correct relief valve per manufacturer recommendations and vented outside the driver's compartment. Bottles are limited to one 10 lb bottle. The use of any agents other than nitrous oxide as a part of, or mixed with, this pressurized fuel system is strictly prohibited. (Push systems are prohibited.) Commercially available blanket type bottle heaters are acceptable. Nitrous oxide may not be used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger. If entry is teched at a non-nitrous weight break then all nitrous oxide lines, fittings, solenoids, and bottles must be removed before car will be allowed to pass tech. Electronics - Progressive systems and timers, which control nitrous/fuel delivery, are permitted. Electronic or automated boost controllers of any type are allowed on any forced induction vehicle. Ram Air - Any aftermarket or fabricated ram-air unit is allowed, but it must not be visible from the exterior. Supercharger - The following makes and models of superchargers are the only units permitted. Vortech A,B,S,Y,R,J,JT,T,YS, YSi & X trim models Procharger D1,D1X,D1R,F1,F1R models Procharger P600, D1SC, P1SC, P1SC-2, P1SC-H Paxton Novi SN,VR4,1000, 2000 models GEAR RATIOS: Internal gear ratios may not be altered from stock. PERMITTED GEAR RATIOS: Vortech - V1- S, A,B,Y,R,J,JT,T, YS, YSi & X trim models 3.45:1 Vortech - V2- S trim models 3.60:1 Procharger - D1,D1X,D1R 4.44:1 Procharger - F1,F1R 5.00:1 Procharger P600, D1SC, P1SC, P1SC-2, P1SC-H 4.10:1 Paxton Novi SN,VR4,1000, 2000 models 3.54:1 or 3.50:1 Turbocharger - v-6 engines limited to a ??? 88mm-inducer wheel diameter???. V6 combinations may use twin turbochargers limited to a ???60mm-inducer wheel diameter???. Injection of any liquid, gas or any other substance in the inlet or exhaust housing prohibited. V-8 limited to a 88mm-inducer wheel diameter for IRON heads only??? Aftercoolers/Intercoolers - Aftercoolers/Intercoolers are permitted. Air-to-air coolers or water coolers are the only systems acceptable. Water and ice are the only two acceptable components allowed in reservoir. ONBOARD DIAGNOSTICS/DATA RECORDERS Onboard diagnostic computers and data recorders are allowed. Memory and playback tachometers are acceptable. Autometer Dual Channel Ultimate II tachometers are acceptable. STEERING Aftermarket rack-and-pinion steering is allowed. STREET EQUIPMENT The following operational street equipment is required: Head lights, tail lights, brake lights, turn signals. TIRES Rear tires may either be DOT-approved and labeled or labeled for racing slicks. DOT tires must have labels facing the outside of the body and are limited to a maximum new tread width of 12 inches and can never exceed 12.25 inches in width. Slicks are limited to a maximum sidewall designation of 10.5 inches width and may never exceed 10.6 inches in width. No W' tires. No drive tire may have an advertised height greater than 30.5. The front tires are limited to 4.5-inch minimum tread width. The tread of tires must not protrude outside of the exterior of bodyline at top of tires. Tire will be checked with a go/ No-Go gage for width and height. WEIGHT BREAKS Weight breaks will be constantly evaluated to ensure parity with all combinations. Base Weight 3,000 lbs - Naturally Aspirated Big Block 3,000 lbs Nitrous Small blocks 3,000 lbs - Nitrous, may run at 7.5 lbs./ci up to 400 ci, 2.9 lbs/ci after that. 3,100 lbs Supercharged/turboed v-8, up to 360 inches. 2.9 lbs/ci for every inch over 360. 3,200 lbs - Turbocharged, v-6 only 3,400 lbs - Twin Turbocharged V6 Clutchless Transmission (N/A only) - Add 200 lbs Dry Sump (Power adder entries only) - Add 100 lbs Modified Front Suspension - Add .10 lb/cube WHEELBASE/WHEELS Wheelbase - Must retain stock wheelbase with a maximum variation from front to back of 2 inch. Wheels - Aftermarket wheels are permitted. A minimum width of 3.5 inches is required on the front rims o No:
That's where I stepped in it with the sport wagon. I moved the firewall back to gain some room under the hood. I have a hair-brained idea to convert the wagon to two doors, but it will be a while before it happens. I notched a chunk out for the fuel pumps. Oops! No twins on a V8? I think the wagon will be WAY overweight!! :error: I wasn't building this car with a class in mind, but to have fun with and try out different ideas. If it ends up not fitting a class I'll still have fun with it! :TU:
Sounds cool to me... I reckon thats the rules for X/S or L/S...thats good for me. I do recommend to allow as much nitrous as the user wishes...the nitrous guys have a hard time keeping up in small tire classes. I wasnt thinking on the same level Rick...I was thinking more informal..too many rules make guys stay at home..example...EZ/S became a class where regular guys could not compete. I appreciate the time you went into putting the post up and I agree with it. As for me,I dont run inner fenders because they get in the way and I dont really want to put em in and its putting more weight in it as little as it is. This is all a great start and I agree on the 1/8th mile forum just for parts breakage. So what tracks are in mind?...fish
1/8th mile... With 1/8th mile it can be held at any track but I think it may be next year when they actually start the class and it will be at a Buick event and hopefully a series like the GSE. If it is next year, it will give time for people to get things together. I will be racing in it next year but won't be around yet this year to activly participate and help out. As for the fender wells, it makes for good access for a fire extinguisher in case of a fire. Taking off a hood when there's flames is a challenge if at all possible but side access is quick, easy and at the base of the fire. Makes working in and around those areas easier too. As far as a nitrous limit, that is mainly for when the new block starts to surface. The new block will hold more nitrous with out popping gaskets or falling apart so it helps keep the playing field more even for those trying to run with the stock block. The Supercharged guys will carry a bit more weight and they are limited by Supercharger size. The way I see it, rules can be loosened later as things start to settle. Either by adding weight penalties or allowing more nitrous if that is what is needed. Right now the biggest limit will be the one 10lb bottle. As with my suggestion for rules, there are a few things that might need addressing. The Power adders limits I like but not absolutely sure about the turbo stuff. No else allows anything turbo on v-8's so I don't know if it will even catch on. The weight breaks, minimums, and penalties are just what I like and think will work. We'll just have too see. With the lower weight breaks or even lower if thats what they end up being, will help keep what we build a little closer to what is run elsewhere. :TU:
I agree, but have a little problem with the rules If you guys allow pontiacs in your race, I'll try and be there. BUT, I have one problem with your rules! I dont have a headliner, and my cage is way to close to the roof line to put one it! ou: SOooooooo, if you can over look that, maybeeeeee :3gears: :moonu: :laugh:
I tried to copy and paste the XS rules from the NMCA/PRO but it was too many words for this board in one post. They are similar to what Super Street was 10 years ago........COOL The problem is Turbo's,If a guy was to build a car he could run in another series they don't allow turbo's. I sent Bobb M an outline of rules for GS "Outlaw" last year......They were similar to XS While I LOVE 10" tire cars,I think a BOP deal would be better off not limiting tire size......Think about the guys that might come to race "H/U" but then want to shut off the Nitrous(Rick is saying "why the hell would you do that? :laugh: ) and bracket race and feel the need for a 14x32 tire for consistency and don't want to buy a small tire for a few passes a year. So let them haul the extra tire,I'd take my chances on my 10-fives.
Exceptions........ Exceptions are one of those things thats maybe should be looked at on a "case by case" basis. Sometimes things get out of hand with letting one guy go with "this" and another with "that". So it will be up to the guy running the show or maybe the racers? If the rest of the car "looks" correct and the headliner is the only problem, I don't see why they wouldn't let it run. I can maybe see it a problem if there was a hundred cars lined up.... :eek2: I would love to see it develop as a BOP Class. That is my vision of it. Hopefully the class can get off the ground and work. It would take some careful planning to work it in all the big events and make it fare to each model. I like BOP's all the same, but I am more connected with Buick guys than the others so I like it at Buick events. I don't care where I race at, if its a Buick or BOP race and I can get there, then thats where I'll be. If Buick starts it and sponsors it, expect it to be at Buick events! We'll just have to see how it all works out. Didn't mean to get off topic...... As far as what Kubisch is saying about allowing the "Big Tire". It is for make the class have a chance by using "pre-existing cars". I just don't believe that we will get much of there paricipation anyways. Most guys that have back-halved Buicks miss the rules by more than just being "back-halved". But if it starts that way, I would think it will have to stay. I would like to see it start as a small tire class to give it a chance to work that way. Keep the "back-halved" cars out for now. If it needs to be that way, so be it. I just have my faith that it will work out without them. Most of the "back-halved" "bracket guys" are why we never had a power adder class in the first place so I don't care to give them any slack. Build another CAR! :moonu:
I say we do it separately... Like Rick said wherever it happens, if it has BOP's I'm there...BUT...I think we should do it on our own terms instead of under an organization. I dont really like the whole giant rulebook type of racing..it works for folks who build a new car every year and race against the same people every year in class racing. I think this will work better with a looser set of rules with 10.5's being what holds it back and on the 1/8th mile where we dont beat our motor to death. Let's face it there just arent That many BOP's out there that run this kind of stuff so if the rules are so damn tight that a guy gets booted coz of a stupid thing like a headliner its going to go nowhere. I really believe we should organize an informal get-to-gether one weekend,later this year,to get an idea of who will come out to this kind of deal. Then we'll get an idea of who's serious about it....fish
I hear where you'all are coming from. Rick and I had a long conversation about this same thing(big tires, floors hideliners). I see/feel where Rick is going with this thing. No I'm not 100% happy with the direction, I was looking for simple, clear cut rules to max the amount of cars that exist. Having said that I'm in the market right now to build a car for this class. It is all we have and Rick as put a lot of time into it already where others looked the other way. The class that Rick started out racing 10.5 went the wrong direction and now no longer exist. It went from a simple set of maybe 10 rules to this below: With the below rules the class didn't last a year. So it's time to stop playing with words and get racing, Rick is an old hat at 10.5, buick, nitrous and racing so his car is ready minus a few old tricks up his sleeves. We have a lot of ground to cover to catch him Hold on Rick Here I come :spank: 10.5 Tire Shootout Rules 10.5 Rules *No open bodied car, must be a door car. *Must run a 10.5 tire, W tires are allowed. *If there are four cars in the semi final round, the two losers will have to come back the final round and have a run off for third place. *Pairings will be drawn from a hat each round. Buy Backs will be allowed. There will be No consolation race. **Rule Revision** Tube chasis cars can run the 10.5 shootout. They must weigh at least 2900 lbs. All cars will be teched prior to the 1st round. All Tube Chasis cars must weigh in at the E.T. Shed after each round of the race.
Gs Outlaw Here are my thoughts No W tire 10.5 slicks only Dots max 30-13.50 3100 All motor 3300 with 550 Max with nitrous one system Max 5 solenoids Weight hits 100Pounds for manuals no Libertys or Lencos 50 Pounds for tunnel rams. These are what i came up for the 06 rules. Turbo and Supercharged stuff not shure. PSCA Racing has a Real Street class Check it out Lets hear your feed back
Don't MIX...... I just don't see Bracket and Heads-Up as the same type of racer. Most cases they are one or the other. Heads-up type engines aren't generally your bracket engine type. (unless they just have to race and no other class to race in). I just can't see spending that kind of money on a Buick, go slower, and race against some gutted out slug. I rather race in a local limited 10.5 race and take my chances. As far as the rules go. They are there to keep things from getting out of hand and having some type of control. I would not keep a guy out for a headliner. There are a lot of rules but they are not that bad. THey are mainly too keep guys from doing crazy off the wall stuff and getting an unfair advantage. Cosmetics is just that, cosmetics. If rules are too much, than just add power adders to Super 16. Right?? I think they are already allowed anyways, then make it heads up? Because I don't see that much of a difference if you take out only a few rules. Most of the power adder limitation won't be a restriction for MOST. The block will slow more down than anything. I wouldn't want people having to do what Rod has to do to his block, just to keep it together and compete. It falls in line with keeping it 1/8mi. You let someone put on 2 foggers with 2 bottles, they will, then there will be one less racer for next time. It about slow steps. Too much, too fast will allow a few to get way ahead before the class ever gets off the ground. I couldn't get my motor to take the amount of nitrous the rules allow and I shoved IN as much as it would take. I'm sure with more money and lots of special tuning I could have found a way. It all takes time and money to do. Someone starting out will need that time to figure out the power adder stuff and if you make the rules to loose than they will never be able to catch up and have a chance unless they can afford a bunch of expensive custom stuff. Like a forged crank that takes a year to get. SO on top of all the money for a motor, if you loosen the chassis rules then you may need to look at back-halving your car too. People will look at what it takes to get into a class. If you set the bar too high, they will spend years trying to get a car together for a class that will never make it off the ground. The rules allow you to fit in more national classes and/or local classes with few adjustment. I'm not against back-halved cars as much as the BIG TIRE. If the class makes it then you can look at loosening the rules later or adding another class. Maybe there will be enough new blocks floating around to do it someday. Buick world, as far as race classes go, are way behind. So I don't think you can skip all the step that the other classes have evolved to. I'm not saying I'm right but just making a discussion about it. I'm sure there are not a lot of cars that are running power adders RIGHT NOW that would fit in the class but why would there be?? Why set up a car for a class that doesn't exist? I feel there will be enough interest if the class gets established and enough time allowed to get something together. THe power adders have become very popular so I don't see why it won't catch on. There are a LOT of 10sec 10inch tire street apprearing cars that run 10's with iron heads and aluminum that are just a bottle away from jumping in. Who doesn't want to go faster?? And by making it 1/8mi you pull in those 10 sec cars that can still keep it together without spinning the guts out of them (literally) and having to make lots of changes to keep the rpms down and motors together. :TU:
I know people are thinking that this is some type of vodo magic to this class, but for those of you that are new to the board or don't always read most of the post in this forum. Rick's car is a very basic set-up. He has no real trick stuff to his car. He has a high filled block with a girdle and a halo girdle, home ported stage3 heads, nitrous piston(thicker deck), he had a home built t400(went to a glide, but has really proved faster yet), sp1 tall port intake, roller cam, an msd 7 programable, about the only real lesson that the average joe would need help with, and Rick has help a ton of people, is in nitrous tune and torque converter selection. His car is even more basic with the only change from stock being a ladder hooked to a ford 9in and a cage. Heck he even had drum brakes all around. Yes there is more to just slapping a 250 shot onto a engine, but it is not that far off, if you aready have a decent set-up. Any of the GSE guys are already there minus a bit of juice. As Rick has stated the 1/8 mile format will keep the motors alive, and the juice will keep the usable rpm down. And with the small tire format, it will make it anybodies race. Back a three/four years ago Rick raced down in SC I think he had the lowest or second to low qualifing ET, but made it to the final round against cars a half a second faster. The track went away and they lost the hook. Now that's racing. With this class it is not about the guy with the most hp, but the guy that can manage and put to the ground what hp he has. Rick, not tring to sell you but, thought it would be help full to the cause showcasing your basics. 95% of the rules are designed to keep the car close to stock(price to build down) and limiting the requirement for big ticket custom parts. :3gears:
