New TA 455 Aluminum Block, What's up!

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by TA Perf, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. buickdav

    buickdav Kris' other half.


    Heyyyyyyyyyy John. SHHHHHHHHH ! With all the small block "help" we're getting now, I have taken a new attitude. I am gonna be as tight lipped as a Chevy pro stock cam cutter with my deal here. If "they" won't help, we'll do it alone :Smarty: .
     
  2. buickdav

    buickdav Kris' other half.

    APOLOGIES for hi-jacking the thread also. I will NOT reply here again as nothing here pertains to me. I just got sucked in by the small block talks. I am sorry, to all that are here.
     
  3. gsjohnny

    gsjohnny Well-Known Member

    buickdav,

    is your buddy going to get with us on some of this stuff??

    john
     
  4. 76century

    76century Well-Known Member

    Any more updates on this?
     
  5. GSXster

    GSXster Member

    Ah!! I do like the angles of those lifter bores. Looks like heads could be a compound valve angle affair ala big block chevy, talk about flow BIG flow numbers!! Could 400 plus cfm be far off? It is a very beautiful block. We'll have to buy two blocks. One for the engine and the other to show off!!
     
  6. CTX-SLPR

    CTX-SLPR Modern Technology User

    All I have to say is that if you get away from the stock vavle train design and go for something different, make it something pre existing so the parts are still of the shelf for the rockers and lifters atleast. Custom pushrods are almost standard fare these days so no big deal there. And if you go slay vavle like a BBC will it still look like a BBB? I'm pushing for the lessons taken from the Stage II and TA3800 V6 blocks to be applied to the 455. Deep skirt pan rails, priority main oiling, solid lifter valley, solid lifter compatable lifter oilling gallery, thicker lifter bore walls for more valve spring and to use the chrysler lifters, more head bolts, cross bolted mains, 1 peice rear main seal, BOPC and Chevy bell housings, external oiling and dry sump provisions, 4 corner water, knock sensors, Siamesed bores for thicker walls, that kind of thing. If you design the heads around a BBC splayed valve arrangement its going to look like an SB2 headed tall deck SBC with a Buick front cover but thats not a block issue, its a heads thing. Make this thing so you can bolt MAJOR Buick stuff to it like heads, front covers, intakes, and motor mounts; that kind of thing. Starters, transmissions, oil pans, timing chains, cams, thats mostly stuff that people fiddle with on the stock stuff so let them fiddle with something already available or a variation on an existing part like a timing chain or stamp a specific budget oilpan for the motor.
    Its a great time to have a Buick is all I'm going to end with.
     
  7. TA Perf

    TA Perf Member

    Ok, we are finally back on a steady track to getting this project finished. As most of you know we were looking very hard at turning our new 455 block into a Y block with 6 bolt mains like the V6. But we have had more time to look at this project and are now thinking of leaving it the way it is. Easier to machine, lighter, should be able to modify current oil pans to fit. Both designs will be very strong. But with that said, I am interested in your thoughts.
     
  8. gymracer01

    gymracer01 Well-Known Member

    Mike:
    Without giving this a lot of thought, I can easily see why you would think about the Y-block design. With what you did with the V-6 and the new Chevy designs, there is no doubt that these will stand some serious horsepower. I guess you will need to figure out where your market for these blocks will be. If it is full, all-out race engines, I think the Y-block makes sense. If people are looking to just have a replacement block but stronger and lighter, then stick with the current design. Personally I lean to the best race engine package. My 2 cents worth. Oh, and thanks for working on this again.
    Jim Netherland
    NMCA B/NSS 67 GS400 "Mad Torquer"
     
  9. CTX-SLPR

    CTX-SLPR Modern Technology User

    The Turbo6 is a case of minimal deviation from stock in terms of creating the 'Y' block (which to me will always be a Ford engine but I get the idea). The V6 block like the nailhead, small block Buicks, and the new Gen III/IV motors are already deep skirted blocks so you don't have to worry as much about changing the oilpan and such its just reengineering the internals the main caps. In the case of the 455 like most other engines out there you have the pan rail up at the level of the main cap parting line so its a major redesign.
    If everyone used 1 oil pan I could see how it would be worth it to design the block around a new skirt design and make a custom oil pan to go with it however me representing the Riv camp, you'd have to make a center sump pan to fit our chassis and then you either have a limited production part or a stranded market. At this point, get the regular skirted block out there and hold the deep skirt block for later on the blueprints to bring out when the serious racers decide to step up to a block.
    The features I would like to see are all the provisions of your V6 block such as the lifter valley walls the increased deck and main webing thickness, heavy duty lifter bores for roller cams, dual bellhousing patterns, and revised oiling with the dry sump feed in the front like the Stage II V6 blocks.
    Honestly a forged crank would be a better trade market item than the deep skirt block because lots of us want more cubes, hold an engine together under booste, or generally just have the peak of durability.
     
  10. Rogers Performance

    Rogers Performance 86 GN 4700 Miles/70Stage1

    I have to agree with Jim most guys will not be able to afford the block in aluminum for their every day driver or the occasional street strip car. At some where between $4500 and $5500 for the block when its done or more i would include the six bolt mains.
    I,am not trying to put the little guy down but out of 100 guys maybe 25 can maybe afford the block and add on,s. So if i was doing the project i would want to up date it.
     
  11. Jeff Peoples

    Jeff Peoples Platinum Level Contributor

    Mike,
    I'm thrilled to hear the new block is on the front burner. My initial assumption is that this needs to be a race only piece. (If the other guy's iron block ever really becomes available, it could be the strip/street application.) As has been said by others, the price of the block alone will make designs intended to preserve all the stock parts compatibility a mute point. I don't foresee the aluminum block ever being a "stock replacement" item. So, in the realm of a block intended for a race car:
    The customer is probably not going to be new to Buicks; he is likely going to have a street/strip car, or even a serious race car. If some of his existing parts won't work with the new block, I think that will be acceptable to most people. Many will offer up for sale some really nice used parts, creating some spillover benefits to some Buick guys wanting to go faster without spending too much $$$.
    In general, most of us want to go fast with reliable combinations, and will individually decide what our budgets will be. Marketing a block that is configurable different ways should yield the most sales for T/A and the greatest number of happy customers. Some customers will want to use their existing rotating assemblies (especially the guys that have paid $$$ for a Moldex crank), and others (like me) will be starting from scratch. Either camp would benefit from utilizing some off the shelf race oriented parts anywhere possible. I think most anyone that will be paying the price for the block expects to buy some other new parts than are going to be required to make more power than they already are. This is where off the shelf parts compatibility will really help finish the rest of the motor. Heck, T/A could even sell these parts in their catalog, like Gessler selling the SBC rockers for the Edelbrock heads. I would not mind the internals being a grab bag of different parts. When you look around in the pits at an NHRA race and the Super Street/Gas/Comp cars, you see all different makes of engines. But when you ask the racers and focus more closely, the engines are mainly aftermarket parts. It is just the point you arrive at when you try to make double or triple the power of the original motor design.
    Most of us agree that we need to keep our identity as a Buick engine. Most obvious part giving us this would be the timing cover, IMHO. If the block can accommodate more race oriented oiling systems, great. Then the timing cover is just along for the ride serving to help our identity. From there I think a little latitude is OK, maybe cast "BUICK" into the visible areas of any new, different looking external parts that sneak in to the design.
    So, I guess what I'm saying is that the skirt design/oil pan design is not a big issue in my book, especially since once the engine is installed in the car, it just won't be that noticeable. Race cars with over 700 hp will be better off with an aftermarket oil pan anyway, so build whatever you think will gives us the best overall bang for the buck.
    Sorry for the sermon, but I know people have been hoping for a long time for this opportunity, and none of us want to be disappointed. Especially when the dollar amounts are high! But, I have learned much from reading and contemplating posts from other board members on this topic. So let's keep the dialog going, and let T/A know that we still want the block, and we want it to be the best it can be!
     
  12. GSMuscle

    GSMuscle Well-Known Member

    A certain number of blocks will have to be sold to recoup the investment and then more sold to turn a profit. If the block cost is $4500 but several 'stock' parts do not fit or change over, the added expense has to be linked to the block cost itself. Sort of fine print or hidden charges. That would definitely restrict potential buyers to a smaller group.
     
  13. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    I have two customers that want these blocks. First guy put his engine on hold with me a year and a half ago to wait for this block and it is a street cruiser. 2nd guy wants one for a show car and both want stock cranks. Then there's mine, all out race. I'm not to picky but I think it would sure be nice to use that $750 oil pan I have, 6 head bolts, STRONG, bigger cam tunnel and lifter bores if needed depending on build level, both chev and buick trans bolt pattern, the oiling is a given. I think it should be oil pan and crank friendly to help keep cost of build down by being able to use some of are exisiting parts, there is a bunch of guys out there that have moldex cranks that can only be cut down to 3 inch mains. That will open the door to more customers I think. Something to keep in mind here, you can't limit your self just to drag race blocks only, there is a lot of very cool street driven stuff out there also and if this thing becomes a DRC type deal there will be a bunch of guys out there that will try and make there girdled stuff last because they can't transfer parts from the old block to the new block . The main thing is the right man is on the job here, I'm sure what ever it is when they show up on the door step they will be top notch:TU: Chris
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2007
  14. BUICK528

    BUICK528 Big Red

    the more deviation from the use of stock parts, the less market there is for the product :Smarty:
     
  15. gymracer01

    gymracer01 Well-Known Member

    I just can't see a reason for an aluminum after market "street" engine. With as many Buick blocks that are floating around, I don't see the need for it on the street. HOW fast do you need to go on the street? I have had several 10.50 second engines that will live fine on the street without a girdle or exotic parts. I think you need to address the racer stuff and not be so worried about bolting on stock stuff. Building it to use cheaper currently available parts from whoever is the way to go. Fix the lifter-cam journal deal and stiffen up the lower end and the deck. I may be wrong, but is there a bunch of "street driven" guys out there that want to run 8's on the street and want to use a stock fuel pump and oil pan?
    JIM N.
     
  16. in my opinion making a block that uses a stock pan and timing cover makes perfect sense. the supply of useable 455 blocks is getting smaller and smaller everyday. by making a block that looks like a Buick and accepts Buick parts TA would be making certain that they will have a market for the other parts they manufacture for a long time to come. eventually finding a useable 455 block will be as hard as finding a stock Hemi. who says you have to want to go 8 or 9 seconds to want a lightweight strong block. granted the pricetag will be a bit stiff, but hey it's better than no 455's at all
     
  17. 1970GS455

    1970GS455 Well-Known Member

    Maybe a poll to get a feel for what is needed more

    a) Street/Strip use

    b) Race Only

    :Do No:
     
  18. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    I just gave 2 examples of these two customers of mine that are waiting to buy the T/A block that will send the money to Mike right now, and both these guys want them just for eye candy more/less. I'm just looking at the big picture here from a business side of things. If you build just a race block that guys will not be able to reuse some of there existing parts ie cranks, oil pans, heads etc sales wise there will big alot of money left on the table here. I think the cost of doing 1 block that will fit all needs vs the cost of doing 2 blocks is not a good investment in this market and if you just do a all out race block you just closed the door on alot of sales..Chris
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2007
  19. bobc455

    bobc455 Well-Known Member

    I certainly don't expect the whole project to be designed around me, but with nitrous and superchargers you can develop quite a lot of HP from an otherwise-tame motor.

    I'd love to throw 18 PSI of intercooled boost on to my daily-driven 455. Or even better, 14 PSI of boost plus a 250HP shot of nitrous.

    On the other hand, if I was going to get one of these blocks and someone told me that the factory oil pan wouldn't fit, that wouldn't be the end of the world. But then if I also had to get special heads, crank, timing cover, etc., then it wouldn't really be a Buick block anymore.

    My car is a street car, but that doesn't mean I don't like to push a lot of HP. I figure I'm already at 700HP when I hit it with lots of nitrous, it would be fun to take full advantage of my nitrous system and even add a procharger on top of that.

    -Bob.c
     
  20. D-Con

    D-Con Kills Rats and Mice

    It seems that Mike should offer up what the expected difference in power handling capabilities there would be between the two designs.
     

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