I had the opportunity tonight to attend a Seminar on oils and high performance engines put on by a local supply house, the presenter was Lake Speed JR, who is the son of Retired Nascar driver Lake Speed, and is currently employed By Joe Gibbs racing. He is a lubrication specialist for the team, and very knowledgeable on the subject, as you would expect. Discussion was about their break in and high performance "Hot Rod" oils. We all know and have beat to death the whole thing about ZDDP, and it reduction in 2004 in normal passenger car oils. This lead to a slew of flat tappet cam failures. I won't go into the whole thing on that, most of us know that you want over 1100PPM of ZDDP in your oil. But tonight, I learned there are other factors to consider in your oil choice. While an oil with high ZDDP is great, the other factor to consider is detergent, mainly Calcium these days. Calcium and ZDDP fight each other in the oil.. In a nutshell, the ZDDP works to lay a anti-wear film on the parts, and the calcium works to clean that off. When choosing an oil to use as the base for your bottle of ZDDP, if your going that way, it's important to get one with the lowest levels of detergent you can find. Any oil with the "API donut" with a certification by them (newest one is now SN) has to have a high level of calcium in it. It's part of the requirements to get the certification. This is because as the CAFE standards keep increasing, OEM's are continually redesigning the engines to move the piston ring lands closer to the combustion chamber, to eliminate dead areas in the cylinder, and reducing emissions. They are also using more aggressive EGR flows, to keep the NOX down. Both these lead to excessive carbon buildup in the engine. To keep these engines clean, they have to have the higher levels of detergent in them. And they "bag" the exhaust of these engines when they do the test, and reduce the fuel economy, base on analysis of the exhaust emissions.. makes no sense, but that's how they do it. Generally speaking, you want to stay away from those API certified oils, if possible, even if your dumping in the bottle of additive. That's virtually everything on the shelf of your local auto parts store. The calcium PPM does in fact vary from brand to brand, so do your research to find the lowest levels of Calcium in your base oil. Or you might not be as protected as you think. Another interesting thing I learned that may be of value for us here, is that their "Hot Rod oil" has a mil spec anti-corrosion additive in it. Originally developed for the US Military, to allow engines in combat vehicles to be stored for extended periods of time, without corrosion inside the engine. That's certainly a benefit for those of us up north that store the cars in unheated garages, over the winter. Lots of other discussion about bearing clearance vs oil viscosity vs oil temps, bottom line is that for most of us in the .002-.003 range on our clearances at oil temps from 150-180* , 30wt oil is the way to go. And finally, a lengthy discussion was held on hydraulic roller cam motors. Since the audience was filled with Chev and Ford engine builders, the majority of their customers have gone to these now. While the need for high ZDDP/low detergent is greatly reduced in these engines, he has some data from Comp cams, which indicates that even with the high performance roller cams, it's still a good idea to have flat-tappet friendly oil in the engine. What they are seeing is "tracking" of the wheel into the camshaft, as well as accelerated rates of roller lifter failures, when modern API certified passenger car oils are used. You still want an oil with the high levels of the extreme pressure additive (ZDDP) and low levels of detergent. That was news to me, as I was mistakenly thinking we didn't have to worry about that anymore, with the roller cams we now have for our Buicks. Just thought I would pass that on.
Is there a specific oil that they recommend? Also how do the new motors survive so long with the oils that have detergent in place of actual oil? Is there a technology or design that we can bring into our old motors so that they're more "modern" oil friendly?
Here is a discussion on their website about the zinc vs detergent situation. http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/trainingcenter/learn/zincvsdetergent.html Also, if you look at the bar on the left of that page, there are mulitple other topics to look at. JW
Yes, their HR series of oils, and he was pretty adamate about the fact that with the normal oil temps most old cars see, there is no clear advantage to the synthetic oils. Even the ones they sell. BR30 for initial break in, and use thru a dyno session, or up to 400 miles of driving. AFter that, HR-2 would be the oil of choice for the majority of our Buick motors. The simple answer here is valve spring pressure. Newer engines typically have very light valvetrain parts, and require no where near the valve spring pressures of older engines, especially high performance stuff. These engines have either OHC with followers, or roller camshafts.. there are very few pushrod engines left, and no flat tappet cam engines at all. New OEM engines have very low loading on the parts, so they "get away" with oils with considerably less of the extreme pressure additives that our older engines require. JW
Great report sir...interesting info. We just put a cylinder head on a 3.6 vvt motor here at a GM dealership. The tech and I were javing a coffee commenting on how small, flimsy things are anymore, but certainly not easier. In addition to lighter valvetrain parts as commented, there are so many cautions in our instructionals now about what not to pry against, etc. Not a fan of alot of the new GM global powertrain stuff, but it is impressing the amount of power achieved w/technology. And carbon buildup is certainly becoming driveability issue more and more. Thanks for the info!
Silly question, but is there a big difference between 10w-30 and 10w-40? I have been running the 10w-40 Royal Purple with bottle ZDDP. Very happy with oil pressure. Should I step down to 10w-30? Could I be adding too much zinc?
that's good to know, didnt know about the calcium being counteractive with zppd.. amsoil premium has zince level in the 1450/1550 range but youre limited to 10w40 and 20w50, i'll have to inquire about the calcium in the other lineups
Yes I do, I probably am about 20 psi for every 1000 rpm. Stops at about 55 psi. In the hot summer though at idle it can get a bit low which is why I went with the 10w-30. Also, could I be adding too much zinc? Is there a negative impact to too much zinc? I can't find out exactly how much zinc is in the Royal Purple.
I am not buying this. No offensive to you Jim but you haven't posted any credible proof, it's just what a biased spokesperson said IMO. I will keep filling my 350 with auto parts store brand 10w-30 and I will keep my excellent oil pressure and I will keep racking up tons of miles.
Myself I have been running Mobile 1 10-30w and 15-50 in equal amounts. The 15-50 is supposed to have more of the ZDDP in it. I have been running this in my 350 for 15 years now. So far I have not had any problems with the cam. I run the Lunati cam. (Pop Mechanics cam). I think what JW is saying is very valid. I have read a lot other stories other than here and there is a problem with the oil in the old motors. The problem is when is it going to hit all of our motors.
Geez Jim, After reading this, I'm sure re-thinking my decision NOT to go with the roller cam option in my new 470 engine you're building. I was planning with going with Royal Purple stuff. I'll go with whatever you recommend. Pete
Yeah, what would a bunch of hard core engine builders/lubrication specialists know anyways compared to your extensive knowledge of a single stock 350. I think we all remember what happened to you attempt at a "performance" engine. ou:
Thank you for posting this info Jim. Many of us would never have the chance to sit in a room full of experts and hear what they have to say about something as important to this community as this. I have always been interested in this and will be attempting to find more info on the subject but you have definitely re-sparked my interest. :beer
My post was a bit harsh, but I am just a little skeptical about this calcium, and the whole ZDDP thing in general. Are there problems with running flat tappet cams with today's motor oils? I think everyone believes so, myself included. However, there have been several board members that have lost cams with "Brad Penn" oil. OOPS!:spank: Also there are alot of people on this board that do not have any issues at all with there flat tappet cams and today's oil and ZDDPlus. I broke in my old TA212 cam with straight off the shelf Valvoline and no additives (What TA told me to do), and put a TON of miles on that cam without a single issue. So excuse me for being a little skeptical of that spokesperson. That spokesperson's job was to get you to buy there oil. Say what you want about my old engine, however it's Lunati cam lasted WAY longer in my engine than some other board member's same Lunati cam in there engine.
Ok that stuff sounds super, but its exspensive. If I didn't rack up 35+ miles a day I'd buy it. JW what do you suggest a guy with my high miles use after my rebuild? I know I will need the proper amount of ZDDP.
