Mopar head..

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Julian, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. Julian

    Julian Well-Known Member

    I posted this on Facebook since there seems to be more traffic there. But here it goes

    "I know this is crazy to post this being that Serious Buick performance is rather really tiny or backlog with a bunch of cheapskates that want to play for nothing at a high level.

    For the last several months there's been a handful of guys that have been in the loop with this stuff. So I figured to share it with you guys but I don't think it will go anywhere but here it goes...

    I have been in talks with Scott Koffel of Koffel's Place, Dave at brodix and as well as Indy Heads. Anyhow, the idea is to get an inline valve head with Siamese intake ports and the intakes in the proper layout for class type racing.... Think NMCA. What's interesting throughout this whole process I got chuckles from them saying you guys are well under headed.

    So after talking to Scott and brodix they managed to look at the situation if it was feasible to do this Gary. You know, I attach a b-1 head to a Buick big block. After a short conversation of looking this over oh, they said it was feasible however.... The cheapest route would be a solid head which that puts me out because I plan to Road race this for 20 laps. Scott and Brodix came up with two options:

    #1

    To do solid heads with deck,ex face,int face,valve cover rail machined,spark plug holes,no seat or guide machine work,no rocker machine work,no pushrod holes,no headbolt holes,.500 mat added to int and ex floors,extra mat added to top of head to raise ports and chamber fill for bore centerline change would be aprox. 2550.00

    #2

    all spec'd here but seat and guides and spring pockets put in regular B1 location and with .600 spring pocket raise.That option would be 2900.00 for the pair.

    _______________

    Now for those that you need water, then we need to modify the core boxes. That cost in itself is $20,000. They are game to do any option. being that the Buick come into these very tiny and I'll call it like it is a bunch of cheapskates oh, you would need to do a group investment into this because you're not going to look for any profit out of this.

    For those that are not familiar with B1 heads, they have several different versions

    MO: average cfm 420-430+ small valve (this is what typical TA heads flow after lots of money on to them and cutting and welding.
    MC: average cfm 440-450+ 2.350 valve
    PSO: average cfm 470-480+

    ***TS1: average cfm 520+ this is a canted valve head.

    ****However, I believe they didn't check on this head. Because I think the bore spacing is different like a big block Chevy and to a 4.9"

    I did contact Indy heads. They first thought I was doing an AMC, just like Scott did, they were game to the idea of putting their heads (572, 600, I did not ask about the predator) on a big bore Buick. However, he won't do a rock casting until it's time to do so. Yet, he's supposed to keep in touch with me whenever that happens..

    That's what I have pretty much on the inline valve front. I have spoken to other head designers on a Hemi design and canted valve designs. They are actually going to do it for a Buick. but the pride of the purest of the idea of putting a canted valve head or even a Hemi head on a Buick send shiver up their spines good but I don't care. It's time to evolve

    I would really like to see how the Kenny Betts wild cat head... Cast would be like. However I'm concerned of the port volume.

    Anyhow, I have something else on the fire I'm going to see how this goes and probably see if it happens in August. if it doesn't go as expected, I'll either sell this engine and go a different direction or e Crow we just stick to the old primitive stage 2 to stage 4 design. that wasn't to disrespect any of you guys I just want something different in modern up-to-date. Buick performance has pretty much been stagnant for the past 10 plus so years."

    If you want to get in contact to me here's my email address. jcdata@gmail.com
     
  2. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Mike T still has the "wicked wedge" project underway too,..not siamese ports tho
     
  3. Philip66

    Philip66 Well-Known Member

    Julian I applaud you for trying to advance the Buick Big Block head game. It's obvious that you have a goal in mind for your project that you feel is unreachable with what's currently available. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for here.
    Are you just updating us with your progress and the steps you've taken up to this point to get where you want to be? Or are you hoping to generate interest in your project with the end result being a head that would be available to purchase after some fine tuning?

    I know it's hard to communicate emotion and excitement using this or any other forum but it's not impossible. It seems like you're upset with anyone who would dare to be happy or content with 750-800 HP using antiquated technology. If I missed it on that one, maybe you're upset because people aren't dissatisfied enough to want to shell out $3K for an unknown set of heads that will need who knows how much more money spent to get them running. Either way it seems like you're frustrated with your chosen engine, the choices available to fix it, and all the rest of us for everything else. But it's ok, you didn't want to disrespect anybody.

    We are a tiny market, and a tiny family as well. I do own 3 sets of TA heads and I'm very happy with them. Two sets were bought long enough ago that there were no other options out there other than TA. Are they the greatest heads in the world? Obviously not. Are there areas that could be improved upon? Of course, that can be said for just about every product on the market. Are they WAY better than anything else I could have bought around the same time frame? Absolutely!! Do I want to upgrade them with something much better? I would love to but I probably won't. Why not? Because I'm a cheapskate, of course!

     
  4. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    I personal finally came up with enough money the other year to get a pair of TA TE2 heads, and yes between getting the heads having them cnc ported and shipped and waiting almost 8 months from date of order to in my hands to gave a set of heads that flow just 380/269 @ 700 lift at at cost of near 4500.

    I personal feel the real cheapskates are no so much the buick owners but the other companies that are sitting in a spot that for a small amount of there total r&d budget could adopt a head design they have and knock us out a head. If they can sell their current design at the price points they are they are making money on them clearly........
    So it might take sell 15-30 sets to recouped their 20k investment, I would imagine if they could be selling heads to an entirely new engine market for only 20k they would be already.........even though we are a small market.....that seems like cheap initial investment to a company their size.

    To me the bigger issue comes that these great flow numbers from all these top notch heads come in the area of .800 to 1.000 lift and with the cam tunnel design in our motor it wont fit or live, or require a cam profile that needs 8000plus rpm to make power Now if a head could be made to flow near 500 cfm at .650 lift where the motor could be kept below 7000 rpm I feel the number of ppl looking would go up. It's not just a head issue....its a design issue in the entire motor and to have a good enough foundation to live at the power level that those cfm number make the entire package skyrockets

    Maybe someday things will change, but I fear if it does the big market sellers will push the little ppl that have severed us as well as they can over the years will get pushed out.

    I wish you luck in your project, I to wish we had more options for those that wanted them. I wish I could afford a big dawg motor, but I'm a out as far as my tiny baby dawg budget will allow me to go. And for now I'm ok with that and happy and thankful for what I have.

    Please jeep us posted on the path your on, I hope you find a satisfying outcome
     
    Philip66 likes this.
  5. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    If the heads flow 500 in. CFM @ .650" lift and the engine is under 500 CID, you're going to need to spin it to 8,000 + RPM anyway to see the potential of that kind of flow. The more CID you have with the same air flow as a smaller CID engine the lower the RPM the max HP will be.

    Also, I don't think you're going to find any head that flows 500 CFM @ .650" lift unless you fit a 3.00" intake valve in the head, but that doesn't leave much room for an exhaust valve.:eek: Maybe if the head has 2 smaller exhaust valves actuated by 1 lifter, then the 3.00" intake valve might fit?
     
  6. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member


    Then it sounds like this could be another reason why no one has b4 made such a head, really not a major need for it.

    I'm not builder so I really dont know the air flow needs of a 464/470/482/505/523/ etc motor.
     
  7. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Would be for the big inch Tomahawk engine builds for sure. The displacements you mentioned having that kind of flow would be lazy in the lower RPM range, there wouldn't be enough velocity for the CID.

    Would be like putting heads on a 265 CID(the 464) engine that flow 300 CFM, won't make power until the RPMs start to get up there. Even the 523 would be like a 327 CID engine with 300 CFM, still would need to spin to win it doesn't pay if you don't play type of RPM to make power!:eek:

    But if in you were to add boost then the boost would replace the velocity and help bring the power down in a more usable RPM range.
     
  8. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    So given it seem like alot of ported TE2 heads come in around 360-380 cfm......even though with extreme work they can go over 400. But given that general results area and given a major percent of our builds fall in that 464-482 cubes......what rpm range and hp levels should that much air on those motors be able to support...........say given alot of motors dont see much over 600-650 lift
     
  9. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Hey Ben, this might help answer your question but you need to know the flow at the lift you want to calculate it at;

    http://www.wallaceracing.com/calcafhp.php

    For sh!7s and giggles I put in 500 CFM @ 28in of water and 482 CID and it said 1028 HP @ 9,314 to 10,814 RPM!:eek:

    Here a bunch of other calculators to take a gander at if you liked this one;

    http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

    Here is a site with flow numbers to many many different heads;

    http://www.users.interport.net/s/r/srweiss/tablehdc.htm

    Enjoy.
     
  10. ken betts

    ken betts Well-Known Member

    Go to Alan Johnson’s website. He has tons of heads with valve size and flow numbers. The problem is you have 1 Buick to every 10000 chevys, fords or Chrysler’s. Another problem is the B1 is outdated. The dogs bark and the caravan moves on.
     
    Mark Demko likes this.
  11. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member


    Kind of interestin . If I plugged my 380 cfm in to my 464, it came back with 781hp, as I chance cubic in hp didnt go up, just rpm rang came down... but if that cfm range can support upper 700hp, over 90% of buick owners wont need anything more in life.


    The B1 might be outdated........but effective stiff? Better than what might be available for those than need that level than what has been available?????
     
    gus455 likes this.
  12. slimfromnz

    slimfromnz Kiwi Abroad

    I entered my info, but had to select Pro Stock option to get it near what our engine makes. I guess its because the heads were flowed with a 4.38 bore not a 4.5 bore
    Screenshot 2020-02-25 15.51.30.png
     
  13. buick bud

    buick bud Well-Known Member

    I actually bolted a b1 mopar head to a Buick block . I have some picture pm me
     
  14. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Post the pics on here?
     
    Doug Hoyle likes this.
  15. standup 69

    standup 69 standup69

    I feel the frustration on the lack of a high volume head but at what point is it even a Buick anymore ..instead of putting a B1 head on just put a Mopar or big ford in there with all aftermarket block etc ,there no Buick left in there with a aluminum block with ford mains , Chrysler lifter bores etc etc ..
    I've often thought of doing an A460 headed 572 or 598 ford easy 1000 HP ..put plain old valve covers on it ,grind all the ford markings off ,90% of the people wouldn't even know it's not a Buick ( distributor is front anyway) ..we constantly banging our head against a wall for 800 Hp
    I'm just going to accept the fact it's an inferior platform and just use it for what it is ..9 and 10 second Buicks kick brand x ass often but after that move on to a different brand or suffer the financial and mental stress of it all
     
    m louk, mbryson and sean Buick 76 like this.
  16. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Once it’s an aftermarket block it isn’t Buick in my book.
     
  17. Tom Righter

    Tom Righter Well-Known Member

    Jon Kasse brought the 460 back to life with his killer cylinder heads and intakes. And then take into account a factory two bolt Main dove 460 block is just about indestructible. Very affordable horsepower
     
    standup 69 and sean Buick 76 like this.
  18. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    my neighbor just did a 600 inch BBC with twin turbos and it hit 2500 Hp with a mild street cam. There are some affordable platforms out there, but they don’t start with a B LOL
     
  19. Tom Righter

    Tom Righter Well-Known Member

    I believe you’ll see those horsepower numbers from A Ta aluminum block, billet heads and twin turbos. It’ll just be double the cost!
     
    sean Buick 76 likes this.
  20. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    Then if you do an aftermarket block is it not a chevy anymore
     

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