Matching Numbers. What does it mean to you?

Discussion in 'The "Paper Trail"' started by Marco, Jun 5, 2003.

  1. Dan Healey

    Dan Healey Well-Known Member

    I agree with Mark Reeves

    I NEVER buy a car without matching numbers, you know, the vin matches the tiltle.:laugh: Nor should you.:Smarty:
     
  2. Phil Racicot

    Phil Racicot Well-Known Member

    My 67 Riviera GS had a matching # engine when I got it 3 years ago but the engine had low oil pressure... and dropped a few parts on the highway last year at 75 000 miles. There were missing parts of the block and cylinder and a bent part of the connecting rod that remained in the pan!. At that point, it was still a matching # car with a blown engine!
    Then I found an identical 430 with same code from a 67 Wildcat that had 51000 miles and had it rebuilt. Now it has more oil pressure and runs strong, I would say the car is now worth more then when I got it with a weak engine at 65000 miles and definitely worth more than with the blown # matching engine!!
     
  3. r72gs

    r72gs Another project........

    It's funny how much of a premuim some things like matching numbers can bring. From what I've seen, my GS 350 would be worth more without the original engine. The 455 cars are more desirable, even if the car started off as a 350. At least thats the way it appears to me.

    My original (numbers matching) block is no good, no worries about that any more.

    Seems to me, most if not all of the 5 points can be faked without too much trouble. Maybe the forgery would be detectable to an expert, but to the average guy looking over a car?
     
  4. raresun

    raresun Well-Known Member

    Marco, I completely agree, and I'm glad you started this thread. I too have been wondering what most folks believe "matching numbers" means. I consider my Suncoupe "matching numbers". The serial number in the VIN tag matches the serial number on the engine, which matches the serial number on the transmission. I also have the correct carb and distributer, which to me is just "icing". I am glad they are there, but I would still consider it matching if they weren't. I also think the cowl tag should be represented correctly also. Again using my Suncoupe as an example, the paint reflects the correct color code, the correct interior trim and color, and so forth. Now, my convertible I would not consider matching numbers. The VIN tag, engine, and trans all match, but the paint, top, and interior colors do not match the cowl tag. The value of any car is really determined by the buyer and seller. The significence of a "matching numbers" car is that represents that vehicle as surviving as it was originally produced, which I believe brings a premium value.
     
  5. 70sportwagon

    70sportwagon Silver Level contributor

    Great thread, Marco! I agree with most everyone. To me "matching numbers" means the original body(replacement panels/floors OK) with original attached VIN/body tag, mounted on the VIN stamped frame with the original VIN stamped engine block and heads, transmission and rearend (NO VIN but right code, year and date)

    Carbs, distributors, etc. are all icing on top of the cake to me and would not bother me if they did not match. Of course from a pure value perspective every original part makes a $$ difference to someone!

    My 71 stage 1 convertible that is going together will not be a number matched vehicle. I have the original block but it has a sleeved cylinder and I just don't want to beat it like that. All other components are matched including the carb, but it will have a 1971 block out of a Riviera built up in the place of the sleeved original.

    Still a cool car but not really numbers matching, though it could be.
     
  6. txgwildcat

    txgwildcat Guest

    The matching numbers game can be a real waste of time, effort and money. A car can always be made to look like a matching numbers car if you know what numbers are needed. Compare the term "Original" to "Numbers Matching", documentation like service and ownership history, build sheets, etc. seems like the only way to help establish Originality of a 30+ year old car. Would I pay more for a numbers matching car opposed to a car that has all the "Correct" components, NO way. Of course I never buy my cars with the intention of reselling them, I live to drive.
     
  7. Phil Racicot

    Phil Racicot Well-Known Member

    I agree with you! That's exactly what I think.
     
  8. txgwildcat

    txgwildcat Guest

    WOW! Someone agrees with me, that doesn't happen very often.:laugh:
     
  9. GSXER

    GSXER Well-Known Member

    Matching #'s is basically the way it came out of the showroom...no dealer installed warranty block or trans...that maybe ok but not factory correct.Basically a numbers matching car has never been messed with, all others are just a bunch of stories.I guess maybe 1 out of 10 cars are still matching #'s cars as most have had the crap knocked out of them over the years.
     
  10. txgwildcat

    txgwildcat Guest

  11. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Guest

    The debate lives on...

    I figured by now, this thread would have been buried, after all the good points that have been made....

    Tony from Ontario, thanks for the compliment and to answer your question, the color of my car ISN'T the original color, Burnished Copper is. Bill at Buickstreet was kind enough to give it a "paint job" using his Photoshop skills...by the way, nice car back at you!

    Everyone has made some valid points in this thread and having read the posts a few times, I think my take on this topic is this: In theory, EVERYONE, would like their car to be matching numbers, am I way off by saying that? The only problem is, after 30 plus years of beatings and other reasons beyond anyones control, a true matching numbers car is a RARITY, at best.

    I have a friend of the family who has owned his 70 Stage 1 since new and still has the replacement block, in the car, rebuilt. I've been trying to get him to register with this board but he's hard to get a hold of, but that's a story for another time,eventually, I'll get him on here. Anywho...

    He was a mechanic at Dino Buick here in (Stoughton) Mass. back in the late 60's, early 70's and scraped and scrounged to by his Sherwood (I think??) Green UNOPTIONED Stage 1 in late 1969. When I say unoptioned I MEAN unoptioned. Nothing, Zilch, Zip. The ONLY option he could afford was the Stage 1 package and that was it!

    About 8 years ago he did a frame off, rebuilt the motor and drivetrain, basically went through the whole car and painted it the black he really wanted when he first bought it.

    This time around, he added EVERY conceivable option he could get his hands on. Every power option, A/C, tilt wheel, cruise control, AM-FM radio, all the bells and whistles he COULDN'T afford way back when he bought it. I asked him why he went that route and he said, and I quote, "Why the hell not? Why shouldn't I be comfortable in this thing? Now it stops (power brakes) as soon as I touch the brake pedal, I can take a corner without breaking a sweat (power steering) and I just push a switch and the windows go down and the doors lock."

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, his car is an "ORIGINAL" Stage car and he's the original owner who's unphased by the whole matching numbers thing...and has NO intention of selling his car anytime soon...

    Don't get me wrong, who DOESN'T want their car to be the "matching number" car we all dream of? I just think some people have lost sight of what these cars are really all about, driving them and making other people scratch their heads as we fly by them...with the A/C on, rolling down the power windows...:Brow: :Brow:
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Re: The debate lives on...

    This was the original post on the swapped body tags.

    The seller did not disclose the (blatant) discrepancy between the body tag information identified by 3rd party documentation and the actual tag on the car.

    Buyer Beware
     
  13. raresun

    raresun Well-Known Member

    Hey Brett, the example you give in your last post raises some questions for me. It is no longer "matching number" (in my opinion), because the data tag in no longer represented. However, it is still a real GS stage 1, not a clone. And the changes made by the owner reflect factory options that were available from the dealer, which as you mention, enhance the cars drive, ride, and comfort levels. Is this car considered 'original' or 'factory stock' ? even though the number don't match, it still represents how it could have been built. I think it does. I plan to clone my converible as a GS, then add as many options as can.
     
  14. gstewart

    gstewart Well-Known Member

    numbers matching ?

    george :
    u are wrong . replacing a block , even under warranty , removes the #'s matching fact & would reduce the value of the car .
    maybe someone could check with barrett-jackson or rm auctions & ask their opinion on this subject .
    as an aside , a lot of buyers are only concerned with the engine being the original to the car .
     
  15. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Guest

    We could go on......and on....

    I think the point I'm trying to make is....well, I guess I don't really know what the HELL I'm trying to say....:Do No: :Do No:

    I DO know that the last 2 posts are correct, in that, now that my friend's car has a replacement block and my he's added all those options, the data tag is no longer represented.

    I also know that if he were ever to sell it, he wouldn't, in any way, misrepresent it by selling it as a loaded, "factory optioned" car, that's not his style. He merely wanted to make the car what he originally COULDN'T afford and since he is and will always be the only owner, good for him.

    But, keep in mind, the car is STILL a factory Stage 1 car with 4 of the 5 "points" Marco mentioned at the inception of this thread, (minus the engine) as well as the right Q-Jet and distributor, build sheet, Protect-o-plate, yada, yada, yada....so I guess if we're using those "points" as an example, it IS a matching numbers car, isn't it?
     
  16. Nicholas Sloop

    Nicholas Sloop '08 GS Nats BSA runner up

    I think that 99.9% of the collector car world would agree that a car with a replacement block is not matching numbers, not matter how original the car is otherwise (i.e. a real, documented Stage 1)
     
  17. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Guest

    Nicholas,

    I agree...and give up...this thread, although informative, has become exhausting...
     
  18. TimR

    TimR Nutcase at large

    I think as brett said, it is up to the buyer/seller to agree what is considered #'s matching. I tend to agree with the masses here, the engine/tranny etc make it #'s matching.

    Having said that, I had a #'s matching 71 GS 455 and once the car was done i was scared to hammer on it for fear of wrecking that.....my 71 GS Stage 1 , documented, is not #'s matching and thats fine with me, I have a row of engines in various stages of completion, if I blow one up, in goes the next, who cares?? I enjoy that car way more than I ever did the other one.

    My 72 GS 350 convertible is #'s matching, still has the orignal battery ables even, but when its done it will have a 455 in it. Go figure.

    So I guess if you are a car collector it matters, personally to me, I just try to make my car the best I can, I see lots of #'s matching cars (they never let you forget it) at shows that don't impress me one bit.

    later
    Tim
     
  19. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Guest

    Here's my friend's car I've mentioned in the post above...he took me for a nice half hour cruise today.....:Brow:
     

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  20. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Guest

    Looks mean from the back, don't it??
     

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