I'm posting this to hopefully start a discussion to educate people on what the phrase 'matching numbers' means when they are going to purchase a car. There is nothing wrong with a car that is not matching numbers, as long as the seller is honest with the buyer. I would like to get some people's opinions on what the (apparently over-used) phrase 'matching numbers' represents. I realize that there are different degrees of matching numbers, and I'll get into that soon enough. I do not want to see anyone else get burned when buying something. The information is out - let's all use it. To me, 'basic' matching numbers statement means all <strike>6</strike> 5 of the points listed below are satisified: VIN accurately reflects the car The engine block has the matching VIN and correct motor code stamped into it The transmission case has the matching VIN stamped into it and the correct identification plate <strike>The rear is the correct type and gear ratio for the motor/option combination</strike> The cowl tag accurately identifies the year, model, color, and trim. This does include the Fisher body number being verified by a 3rd party, where applicable Frame has the matching VIN stamped into it If all above points are satisfied, there can be some additional 'cream on top' criteria. For example, a factory Stage1 car may come with the correct part # (and date coded) Stage1 carburetor/distributor. The car can have the correct part #/date coded intake/exhaust manifold(s), or they can at least come with the car. The car has the correct (and intact) grille and bumpers. Sheet metal, as well as glass, can be original or date coded. Original options (like GSX hood tach or stripes) are still present on the car. You can also get into concours type originality where the screws are the correct size/color, the firewall has the correct chalk markings, you have the correct style original battery, air cleaner, etc. But, like I said, all the above is the cream on top. The above DEFINITELY adds to the value of the car in question. All things above can also be acquired - they do not have to come with the car. A little searching diligence (and, in some cases, deep pockets), is all you need. The <strike>six</strike> five points, however, once they're gone - they're gone. I'll stick to my guns on the <strike>six</strike> five points listed above is what constitutes the 'matching numbers' statement. What say ye?
Sounds good to me. One thing I have wondered about though. What do you do when the block is decked on a '70 and you loose the vin # from the deck surface? Unless you had the forthought to take a picture of it and can convince everyone that it is the same block, you basically loose your ability to prove that it is #'s matching. Obviously, having all the items you mentioned match up greatly increases the authenticity of the car and therefore raises it's value substantially. Randy
Saw a Nova for sale once , sign said matching numbers. In very small print on the bottom edge of the sign it read, "vin number matches title."ou:
That sounds about right to me Marco. For me, use of the vehicle comes first and foremost, but if I were to purchase a collector car, it would be a numbers matching vehicle if at all possible. In a way, it's a relief to me not to have to worry about the numbers on my car anymore, but in another, it bugs me that it won't be matching numbers ever again- it was when I bought it, though. I'd like the option of doing a correct resto even if I don't really want to do one- rather do it on a real GS, it's a lot of work.
Marco - on #4.....The rears aren't stamped with the VIN ?? If not, id say its only VIN stamped Items so #4 , the Rear, would have to be omitted. On the "correct" pieces such as carbs/distrib/ and date coded items.....you forgot Spark Plug Wires
Where are the numbers stamped on the frame? I had my frame completely striped last summer and dont remember seeing any numbers and i know my frame is original.
Alan - You're correct. Rear axles can be replaced with one from the same year/same stamping. There is no VIN. Make that 5 points for matching numbers If you're talking about correct date codes, this goes FAR beyond what I have listed. I tried to keep it with major motor components, which is why I only listed the carb/dist. Basically, EVERYTHING is date coded. Just wait until Duane sees this...
Kevin - The VIN is stamped on top of the frame near the driver's side door. It is next to impossible to see with the body on the car.
The only reason I would buy a #'s matching car is to restore it back to original, if not already so. If the block has been decked, the car is no longer a #'s matching car, because it can't be restored back to original, no matter how many correct dated parts you find.
Hey Guys.I agree with Marcos points. A #`s matching car is probably worth a bit more $$ in the end regardless if it`s a Stage car,Skylark or GS350/455.In my opinion it shows that the car was maintained and not abused to a high degree.For any car to retain its original driveline after 30+ years is a positive feat in my books. My GS for example in all honesty is very nice #3 driver,not mint by any means.But it is a matching #`s car and I am proud that it has survived with its original pieces.How many ``Muscle Cars`` still have their original engine/trans?? I would bet more than half don`t.Anyway,if a car is nice,it`s nice.I have drooled over many a car that was probably not #`s matching.Would I buy a nice non matching car?? Sure!! Only if the $$ matches the car!! Later,Tony.
My 2 Cents... Hey all, I feel I have to chime in on this one. Having been lucky enough to find my "dream car" only a few miles from my house, I guess it would only be fair to say this: if your pockets are deep enough to spend the money for that "matching numbers" car, God love ya. I know, on my income, I'd NEVER be able to find what I found, in the near perfect condition of some of the cars I've seen not only on this board but in other places. Not to take ANYTHING away from you folks who own those cars, not at all, don't take this in the wrong context... Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the original Q-Jet and Muncie in my car but if you really think about it, after (at the least) 31 years, GOOD LUCK trying to find that matching numbers car. Some people are lucky enough to find these things, and to them I give :TU: The rest of us have to scrape and scrounge to find the right "date coded" carb, distributor and soforth, and that's not our fault. It's a result of (in some cases) 33 years of abuse, repairs, ignorance of mechanics, etc...I know, I'm rambling... I guess I should probably get to my point and answer Marco's question. Before I do that, let me add this: I bought my car (1 of 101) with the original motor and rear end. The original Muncie is LONG gone, as well as the original Q-Jet (hence the numerous posts) and distributor. I was LUCKY enough to befriend a board member who had what I needed and I did as well regarding distributors, so we made an even trade. Would I ever get rid of my car? No F*&^ing way! I take into consideration that fact that after 33 years (I'm going to venture a really good guess here) mostly everyone who bought these cars new, beat the living crap out of them and if you can still find one with at least one, MAYBE two of the MAJOR components STILL intact, good luck.... Just my two cents...sorry for rambling on....:Smarty: :Smarty:
What is meant by the block being "decked"?? You mean the head mating surface? If so, you can still have numbers cause on my 69 400 it has the VIN numbers on the front of the block behind one of the pumps, (power steering, fuel whatever, I can't remember exactly, but they ARE there). I evenhave the original rear (most likely) because it's 3.08 12 bolt non posi which was standard fare on Canadian GS's and it matches my GM of Canada printout I sent away for. Most were 2.93's but some WERE 3.08!
Re: My 2 Cents... Thanks for rambling Brett - this is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm talking purely from the perspective of someone buying or selling a car, and the amount of honesty/investigation that needs to be involved. I want people to know what they're looking at when making such a purchase. After the recent issue of 'swapped' cowl tags (my opinion), I hope this post could inform us Buick folk of what to look for when buying a car. I don't want anyone to get something they didn't bargain for.
Marco, I agree with your 5 points and those are the points that I usually consider when someone says numbers matching. Brett, I think in your case since you do have the original motor the value of your car may be higher than if the motor was not original. (and that nice window sticker helps..:Brow: ) I am very lucky that my '68 GS is numbers matching (5 points) and almost all of the major components are original, except the carb that was traded by the second owner for a rebuilt '68 430 carb. Will I try to get the correct '68 400 carb......No, but if I happen to come across a good deal on one I will pick it up.
Ken - Many cars have the VIN stamped on the drivers side of the block, between the front two spark plugs.
In answer to Marco's question, the main 4 or 5 is all that's important to me. All the acoutriments (SP?) like numbers carb, distributor, voltage regulator screws, what have you, are just nice cocktail hour topics as far as I'm concerned. One shouldn't necessarily envelop his/her entire life on these types of items. That borders on major obsession IMHO. The normal course of service life sees to it that these items usually do not remain. So it's actually very acceptable as far as I'm concerned.
Marco, I was aware of that, but now you've got me thinking too. When I pulled those heads off and cleaned the block in that area, I don't remember now if I saw the VIN there or where I earlier described, on the front of the block. Something tells me it was on the front of the block still. But I was aware of the stamping between plugs too. :TU: I need to check this weekend.
Hey Brett.I like that GS in your avatar in yellow.Cool colour!! I don`t think your rambling at all.I agree with your points.When I was looking for a car 6 years ago #`s matching was not a big concern to me.As long as the car was pretty sound and not beyond my mechanical abilities I gave it a good look.Most important was $$ and my GS was the best buy for the buck.It was not untill a month or so later I started to really check out the car and discovered it was a matching car.As I see it,if the car is right and the $$ is right,just buy it!! My turn to ramble!! Later,Tony.
Marco is correct Marco , in Oldsmobiles the 5 points you listed are what we consider a matching number car. The additional things-- like distributor, carb that match can be those correct for the model , eg W-30 cars has specific numbered dist and carbs for certain years. This greatly increases the value. Just sold a W-30 car with Matching Numbers. You really have to question a seller on what he means when he uses that phrase. Most mean the engine and VIN match. John
Marco, I agree that your (5) points are what most folks see as a matching # car....and it's a rare thing to find in a muscle car. The engine assembly being what makes a muscle car is the most important. Yes we did beat on em...I still do! :Brow:
