For those sub 10.99 second 1/4 mile BBB bracket racers. The poll question is: How many 1/4 mile passes did it last before grenaded -or- that you felt compelled to break it down, check the bearings, and freshen it all up? My Definition: A car built to race more than once or twice a year at National Events. An "expectation" that it will last 150+ passes without major meltdown or breakage. Shifting in the 6300-6500 range at 6600-6800RPM through the traps. $15,000 or less spent on the engine combo, not including chassis work, tranny, converter, etc. Raced competitively in a local track series. Your thoughts may be different; if so... start your own poll I'm sure the faster you go, the more you break, so I'm not looking to break out 10s, 9s, 8s, 7s, etc. I'm trying to gauge the average life expectancy of a Bracket 1 car that is running competitively. --Not just for a number a couple times a year. Be as fast as you think you need to be to win and run your dial-in on a consistent basis. Thanks, John
John, I think you should get ahold of Gary Pain. He just blew an engine up that lasted 946 passes. He was deep in the 10's and even used the engine for 2 summers in a street car. My engine dose not meet your definition but it's close so I'll throw this out. I can go 11.0's in good air at 3850 lbs. I normally run at 90% of what I could run on any given day. I run slightly under geared. I run aftermarket rods, girdle, short fill and somewhat light weight pistons. I'm at 13.0:1 compression. I shift at 6000-6200 rpm and hit the traps at 5800. I expect 400 passes before I take the oilpan off. I have no where near $15,000 in it.
I have two factory built 70 455 with over 2000 passes on each motor shifting at 5800-6000......bearings have never seen the light of day since 1970. Both went 11.60s in a 3800lb GS. My first built motor (10.60s) in BQUICK went 400 passes before I did something stupid (cranked up the timing w/o a light in the staging lanes at BG)....55 deg total timing broke the web and the piece came out with the main cap when I went to put bearings in it. Stage 2 in it now has a few hundred and 4 yrs on it. The more modified you go the more one thing can take the motor out if it is not up to the task, assembled wrong or not compatible with the combination......as in my JAGUICK motor (RIP).
none of mine have lasted more than 20 passes the hypereutectic motor tried to last the longest,but yet again I pushed the envelope and killed 4 pistons. All of these dead bullets are my fault and wouldve lasted longer had i not turned up the wick on the tuneup....oh well o No: ...fish ou:
Yeah, it often come down to one mistake....not necessarily the motors fault. I had operator error at 7600 rpm and the stock oil pan did not belong on a 9.70 car...... A guy at the local track blew a few Chevy motors due to the tach not accurate....set on 6 cyl or something.
It lives! John, I have had several motors that ran 10.99 or better (as fast as 9.42) and I race in the points at my local track almost every weekend (I even qualified for the bracket finals the last 3 years). I also attend most of the National and east coast Buick races. All this shifting 1-2 at 6200 and 2-3 at 6400 with a trap RPM of 6400 to 6700. I run aluminum rods, light pistons, internal balance (the key is internal balance), 13.2 to 1 compression, TA 308 solid cam, 1/2 filled with hardblok and no girdle. I had over 400 runs on one and the parts were still good and about 200 runs on the motor that the flexplate broke on in Norwalk so it went to the shop for a rebuild. The current motor is a 494 stroker (with AMP parts) and it was about 8k total cost. Mike carcrazy455@yahoo.com
Thanks everyone for the replys. Let's keep the dialog going. **For a Moderator** Is it possible to open this up for multiple votes? For instance I've grenaded more than one motor. A reason for this as valuable info would be to help a person decide where to target efforts in building a race car. For instance: Perhaps a person decides to forgoe the bracket route and instead focuses purely on heads-up classes. Perhaps they would use this info to build for the 1/8 mile rather than 1/4. I would have liked this reference about three years ago :beer
Hey John, There is no reason why a Buick engine should not live as long as any other engine out there. The one thing I keep on stressing to everyone who builds an engine is.... The more HP and RPM.... the lighter the rotating parts must be. In addition to the above statement tight bearing clearances will KILL and engine. If you have the correct clearances along with enough OIL VOLUME, not pressure but volume then there is no reason for an engine to fail. Give me a call or send me your phone number. I would like to talk with you about your engine. Later
Mike, $8K for the shortblock, longblock, or carb-to-pan? Shayne, Gary's car is no heavy weight and for the last few seasons he knew he was on a time bomb. Light cars save wear and tear on motors as well. John, I'll PM you my contact info.
I had just over $3000 in the engine in my 68 drag car that went 10.0's and was very competitive. That engine was full of used parts and made over 300 passes for me without a problem and was never pulled down for a check, regular leakdown checks and excellent oil pressure. The engine in my old Regal was built as a heads up nitrous motor for a local race series but converted over to bracket race duty. The Regal was 3850lbs race ready and ran 10.70's natural and 10.0's at over 142mph on spray, I had aprox. 600 passes on it before it was sold. Sold to Gary Paine about 4 years ago and ran lots of passes in Dougs car, they did a tear down on it over the winter and reported the bearings looked like new. Both of these engines were low RPM motors one with heavy internals in a heavy car the other light internals in a light car and both external balance, both engines ran stock oil pans with rear baffle plates. I do some different things with my oil systems and use coated bearings. I wouldn't run anything other than Buick power at this performance level, step up more and I may change my mind, but up to 650 HP I am happy with my choice for power.
Costs $$$ John, here is a breakdown of the cost of a 494 stroker. Let me know if I forgot anything. Heads 1895 Complete Stage 2 SE from TA (BPG Sale) 700 race port by Al Calloway 2595 Total for heads Block 100 Core 575 494 stroker crank from AMP includes core 895 Manley aluminum rods from AMP 775 JE pistons from AMP 133 JE rings from AMP 68 rod bearings from AMP 96 main bearings from AMP 85 coated TA cam bearings 55 ARP main studs 135 ARP Stage 2 head studs 140 Gasket set and copper head gaskets 100 Billet timing chain 22 stock oil pump 260 TA 308s cam and TA solid lifters 115 TA 5/16" CM push rods 3554 Total NEW Parts Machine Work 160 clean parts and prep block 232 bore and hone with plate 100 drill for Stage 2 studs and line bore 225 fill block with hardblok 525 internal balance 82 mag and sonic test block 250 assemble short block and degree cam 50 install pistons on rods 82 drill oil passages 125 file fit rings 125 o-ring block 1956 Total Machine Shop Charge 8105 Grand Total ou: :ball: Parts already purchased but not inluded in price TA Timing cover Water Pump Intake Carb TA Roller Rockers Valve Covers Oil Pan and pickup MSD Distributor ATI Balancer JW Wheel Flexplate Starter Final Assembly done by me Hope this helps! Mike carcrazy455@yahoo.com
Dennis, Do you think it might be important to highlight what you do for a living and how much of the work you do on your own? For someone that may not know you, those $$$ numbers are misleading. I'm not knocking you, but it seems that those that are making their motors live often have access to some items and/or knowledge your everyday shadetree mechanic/racer may not. For the rest of us, this should be pointed out in bold print. Here is where I've derived my $15K estimate from (as well as the work my last motor had in which all the bearing clearances were verified as well as oiling mods done by a Buick Performance shop, the "right" way). ***Spreadsheet courtesy of John Zerucha, and I consider it conservative. --John
Mike, AM&P did my last motor as well (including assembly and dyno). I provided the block core, crank, 7 TA Sportsman rods, carb, distrib, front cover, wires, oil pump, cam, roller rockers, heads, oil pan, valve covers, balancer, timing chain, balancer, flexplate, and starter. Based on the prior meltdown, the heads needed a valve job. I put another $500.00 in additional port "while I was at it". We picked up another rod, and did similiar machine work as you laid out. Assembly cost $1300.00. In the end my 464, dynoed at 605HP, cost $7,203.37 (not including the parts I provided). John
John I'll second Johns statement regarding lightweight parts,that old motor that I ran with nearly 1000 passes and street duty had 7" aluminum Bill Miller rods and light Venolia pistons.Rpms kept between 6-6500 and plenty of oil.When I inspected the damage the bearings were still excellent,the small end of the rod finally had enough,I guess al rods evevtually say bye-bye.The block was'nt girdled or hard blocked. Scat weighs over 3200# w/o driver,so I guess its a lightweight by normal GS terms,but certainly not like a tube car.The only fiberglass on 'er is the hood and iots factory glass all the way around. gary
Ok didn't real loose one.... I marked 61-79 because I go thru my motor ofter to keep an eye on things. So I really never lost a motor... o No:
John, I deliver cookies for a living and work in an engine shop for a hobby. I also run a machine shop, build custom machinery and repair machinery as a contract repairman. The cost of my engine did include free machine work, assembly and dyno time. Most of the parts were used or second hand, I sold that engine for $5000 turn key from parts for sale section here with trans and converter. To be fair the machine work that was done would have cost less than $500 as this was a used engine that the last owner sold to me because it caused too much trouble, he went to Chevy power, I just went through and made the changes that needed to be done, all the good parts were there. The other engine was originally done at one of the reputable Buick shops with well over $12000 invested, made crap for power and lasted 2 passes, I then decided to never rely on someone else to build my engines. I went back through that engine repairing all of the mistakes and oversights and it lived happily ever after. I didn't plan to mislead anyone with the cost on my engine just showing what can be done. I didn't include any free parts in the price, I bought all of the parts on the internet including some on ebay. My entire car was built on the internet over a short period of time for aprox. $11000 complete and ran a best of 10.37, with a new set of slicks and a set of headers from Earick as the only new parts it went 10.05 @ 130 and won a ton of races without being worked on. In 2 years of every weekend racing a blown head gasket was the only repair that needed to be done, probably should have had better gaskets than the Felpro blues but they were cheap.
Dennis, I like cookies To be fair to the board as well, my three failures still totalled well less than $15K... As this has been my first venture into not just racing, but also building a car from the ground up, I have no regrets. I've learned a ton. The problem is this last one tore up just about everything. I can no longer really justify rebuilding a 600ish HP iron headed combo. I'm going to start fresh, and the verdict is still out on what to do. Your experiences seem to be the exception to the norm on one end, mine on the other. If BBB racing is going to stay alive however, that new block needs to become a reality. John
Cool tread, Mine don't fit the 10 second ET range but my basic shortblock [block,crank,rods,pistons] have been in my car for probably 8 years now. It was not near as fast as it is now at first [high12s] and it has been ringed and bearinged a few times but so far it has never broke or even had a cam bearing go bad. I don't even have a guess on how many times its been down the strip. I was working in a engine machine shop back when I first built this motor and did all the machine work on it myself and put it together myself. My shortblock is about as low buck as one could get, stock rods with ARP bolts and big end resized, no polishing or shotpeening, sealed power forged pistons out of the box, 72 block with a good bore and hone job with each cylinder honed to match its piston size, ARP studs, untouched main bearing bores, just a basic reground crank. It does have alot of oiling mods though. The motor wasn't even rebalanced. The last couple years it has been shifted at 5900 to 6100 rpm and hits the lights on a good day at about 5900 rpm. It has been up to about 6400 during the burnout because I was not watching what I was doing [rev limiter was set to 6400 and on it hard a couple times]. I haven't broke a motor yet but finding the weak points in the 12 bolt rear though the last couple years :laugh: I am sure my day is coming when I waste a motor. I am getting some better heads and will have to put them on my motor for now till I can slowly get a new shortblock done I am thinking that the head swap should get me to 11:20s or maybe 11 teens with every thing else the same as it was. I realize that mine don't meet the power output this tread was aimed at but I thought I would post because I have been talking to John H alot lately about this kind of stuff and the heads I am getting are off his last motor. Tom
John, I raced on a budget for many years. When I started racing weekly I bought a couple of complete used but running race motors for about .30 cents on the dollar. Be sure that the motor has good oil pressure and runs to it's potential and is not already chewing up (when I say runs to it's potential I mean for the overall combo so If a motor should move a car into the 9s based on cam, compression, weight, gear, etc.. that it does not run 12s). I was able to race weekly with the used motors for several years and ended up with all the accessory parts I use on my current motors. Some accessory parts I sold off used and then bought new. I have sold some good used race motors and parts on this board and see others all the time. Mike carcrazy455@yahoo.com
500 plus Runs! My Charlie Evans iron headed adn hydraulic cammed 464 went 561 passes with 90% of those 1/4 mile and all under 11 seconds. I run on a 10.50 index and have run a best of 10.31@ 128 plus. The engine is in a 3400# 67 GS. This engine ran from 2000 to July 2005. It was never freshened and only replaced the valve springs once. It finally broke at Cordova IL at the NMCA race. Not a grenade, broke an exhaust rocker and then a intake lifter and the lifter boss which killed the block and put me out of racing for the first time in 10 years of racing Buicks. Bottom end still looks good. Putting a basicly stock engine in the car for the next race. Will transfer assembly to another block. Jim N. B/NSS NMCA
