installing Ta 212 Cam and questions about rotor poition

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by Pinder, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. Pinder

    Pinder Well-Known Member

    Hi, I am in in the middle of installing a new TA 212 cam. My old cam had two lobes rounded off Not sure why that happend. Anyway so i have taken the old cam out and cleaned up the engine etc. Waiting on parts hopefully this weekend. When I put the cam in and line up the timing marks (crank at 12 oclock and cam at 6 O clock). When I go to install the distributor should i be setting the initial position of the rotor just before spark wire #1?. Want to make sure I have this right before i fire her up.

    Regards

    Pinder

    1967 Buick Riviers GS 430 engine.
     
  2. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Did you set the engine to top dead center on number 1 compression stroke before you pulled the dist? If so then just make sure that the rotor is lining up with the number 1 plug wire...

    If not then remove the number one plug, stick a wine cork in the plug hole, tuen over the engine till the cork pops out the line up the balancer withe the tdc mark and then you know you are on the compression stroke of number one cylinder... Then ensure the number one plug wire lines up with the rotor...

    Fire it up and set the timing...
     
  3. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Or if your doing a cam swap we have our valve covers off so if your not degreeing the cam and using a stock replacement chain set then yes go dot to dot with no 1 at TDC, stick pencil or whatever in the jug and rotate till it reaches its highest point granted there is piston dwell so if you desire you could rotate till pencil or whatever stops goin up take note of where pull bar or ratchet handle is then continue to rotate till pencil starts to drop, take note ratchet handle the back it up to half the distance to the first mental mark, kinda crude method but will be very close, which more than likely will have the crank sproket dot straight up maybe a tick one direction or the other, line cam sprocket up to dot, and finish install your no1 cyl will be on compression stroke, degreeing is best but the above will work ,you can verify by looking at cyl valves if they closed which they will be and piston is up your there, install cover then rotate mark on Balancer to the 12 mark or mmeasure 1.75 inch below balacer mark and put that mark on the 0 mark on the timing cover tab, once that is done drop distributor in see where it lands and turn the oil pump gear to position distributor where ever you want no 1 I use the factory locatio which is the one rite before the window in the cap, try to have the rotor just a little before whichever terminal is going to be no1, remember rotor turns clockwise, prime carb with fuel and if you ran wires correctly car will immediately start, disconnect vac advance on distributor and block port on carb, the 1.75 second mark is 30 total timing btw
     
  4. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    I haven't installed a cam in ages, but you might not be on the compression stroke with the gears dot to dot. Pretty sure you have to rotate the crank for that. I seem to remember Schurkey correcting me on that quite awhile back.:Dou:
     
  5. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA


    Its been a while that I have installed a cam also,but I think you're right. If they install the cam dot to dot on the compression stroke I am thinking that it will be 180* off.

    On the compression stroke I believe that the dots will both be at the top.GL

    Derek
     
  6. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Dot to dot fellas, you put both dots up, it not gonna crank
     
  7. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member


    I'm saying dot to dot, you are on the exhaust stroke. Rotate the crank 360* to get on #1 compression, and the dot will be up on the crank gear, and up on the cam gear because the cam gear turns 1/2 of what the crank gear turns. I think that is what Schurkey corrected me on. Then again, maybe I'm getting old.:laugh:
     
  8. bbb72

    bbb72 Well-Known Member

    Crank gear dot should be at 12 o`clock.
    Cam gear dot at 6 o`clock.

    with the number one piston up on compression stroke.
     
  9. Smartin

    Smartin antiqueautomotiveservice.com Staff Member

    Compression/exhaust stroke is dictated by the cam. Rotating the crank 360* does nothing. As long as #1 is at TDC, line up the dots and you will be there.
     
  10. Pinder

    Pinder Well-Known Member

    Ok so I think I m still a little confused but based on my observations while dismantaling i tink Larry is Correct but I cant be 100% sure. I think if the dots are lined up with Crank at 12 and cam at 6 then piston #1 is on intake stroke. but if both are at 12 then # 1 is on Compression. so I pan to line up 12 to 6 to insert cam and chain then rotate one cycle the cam to get it at compression stroke on #1 piston. I will verrify this with the cork trick. before i took the distributor off i did have the rotor pointing approx to # 1 spark plug . when i took the timing cover off the dots were approx at 12 o oclock for both.
     
  11. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Smartin is right,install the cam dot to dot,the cam will dictate where the valves will open and close.(DUH! I'm remembering now.LOL) And when you set your dist. you will want the cam dot at 12 o'clock and the crank dot at 12 0'clock that is the compression stroke. Its easier to be off a tooth if you set the dots both at 12,set them dot to dot and rotate the crank 360* when you're ready to install the dist.

    Derek
     
  12. Pinder

    Pinder Well-Known Member

    Ok that makes sense and tallys with my inital observation based on a post on utube where some guy cant start his car as he was out by 180 degrees after new cam install.

    thanks for everyones help. I just received the new cam but still waiting for the timing set oil pump rebuild kit and new waterpump.
     
  13. pmuller9

    pmuller9 Well-Known Member

    I just installed a new cam and the cam was 6 degrees retarded.

    It is highly recommended that the cam timing be checked for all new aftermarket cam installations.

    For a quick check you don't even need a degree wheel
    The TA212 cam is at .050" intake lobe lift 1 degree before TDC.
    Just bring #1 piston to TDC and see if the intake lifter is near .050" lift.

    You can be within 2 degrees either way from the specified cam timing shown on the cam card that came with the cam.
    If it is more you won't be happy with the results

    Paul
     
  14. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    If dot is at 12 o'clock on cam gear your at top of exhaust stroke.start of Compression will be at 3 o'clock cam gear. Cam rotates half engine speed engine is a 4 stroke.
     
  15. Pinder

    Pinder Well-Known Member

    Ok Guys. I will degree it in. I found a printable Degree wheel on the net that you can print and paste onto your not so favorite CD.

    Pinder
     
  16. Pinder

    Pinder Well-Known Member

    Ok finally got all parts i need. Just recevied the fuel pump (mechanical original style). Was thinking should I paint it ? looks like the top of the housing is cast steel or iron. Might riust. ITs a Carter pump.

    Thoughts on this would be appreciates. I could just clear coat it with some engine paint.
     
  17. hdpegscraper

    hdpegscraper Well-Known Member

    Touch a magnet to it, its more likely cast aluminum.
     
  18. Dan Gerber

    Dan Gerber Founders Club Member

    Solvent clean the pump, mask off mating surface and pump arm, lightly scuff with very-fine grade Scotch-Brite or 000-grade steel wool and apply clear engine enamel. That will keep it looking like new for years.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
  19. Pinder

    Pinder Well-Known Member

    Thanks Dan I will do that.
     
  20. Schurkey

    Schurkey Silver Level contributor

    True.

    Also true, but only if the timing chain isn't installed. If the timing set IS installed, turning the crank 360 changes TDC-Exhaust into TDC-Compression, (or the other way around) which dictates where the distributor rotor is aligned.

    NOT true if you're answering the OP's question about distributor alignment. If the timing chain is installed, "TDC" could be TDC-exhaust, or TDC-compression. When the "dots" are close together--crank dot "Up" and cam dot "Down", (the way most folks do the job!) the engine is at TDC-exhaust, which means you'll have to drop the distributor in with the rotor aligned for firing #6, NOT #1.

    If the crank and the cam gear dots are both "UP", it's way harder to verify that they're truly aligned--but that's where they'll need to be to drop the distributor in with alignment for firing #1.

    I align the dots close together, then turn the crank two rotations (720 degrees) and re-verify alignment using the degree wheel. I adjust the camshaft position as needed. Then I either drop the distributor in pointing at #6, or I turn the crank again (360) and align the distributor for #1. Either way works, you just have to know where the cam is.

    If you turn the crank backwards at any time, go further than you need to, so that the final adjustment of crank position is done in the regular direction of crank rotation--so whatever timing chain slack there is, is on the right side of the gears, not the left.

    For whatever it's worth, I align the crank at ~10 degrees BTDC, then drop the distributor in, approximately the correct alignment. (You could choose a different position for the crank. For example, if you know you want 15 degrees of advance, put the crank at 15.) If the distributor is an HEI, I drop it in in, then turn the housing until I feel the magnetic pull of the reluctor and pickup coil. The teeth are exactly aligned. Tighten the housing, assemble the rest of the rotor, cap, wiring, etc. The distributor is now static-timed for ~10 degrees advance--the engine is sure to run when the key is turned. With practice, the static timing comes out within a degree of the target. For a points-distributor, it's a little harder. You need an ohmmeter connected to the housing and to the single wire that goes from the distributor to the coil - terminal, but disconnect the wire from the coil. Drop the distributor in, roughly aligned, connect the ohmmeter to that wire and the housing. Turn the housing the opposite direction that the rotor turns. When the ohmmeter reading changes from near-0 ohms to "Open Circuit", tighten the housing. This takes more practice than static-timing an HEI, but it will still get you very close to the target.










    Be glad you aren't putting a timing chain onto a friggin' Ford Y-block, where you have to count the timing chain links between the crank dot and the cam dot, 'cause the cam dot doesn't go "up" or "down", it's somewhere in-between.
     

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