Sweet price for rods! Especially rated for 1,000 HP! Nice, I added the site to my favorites in case I go that way when funds are there. Nice find Paul, thanks. Derek
Hey Tony, sup its been a while how have you been? Yeah the China crap is getting more and more competitive with increasing quality, the last Procomp H-beam rods I used in a build have handled 8,500 RPM under full power! I was told that and told him to set the dam rev limiter at 7,500 and don't rev it that fast because those rods are only rated for 7,500! That engine is still running breaking rear ends and killing transmissions 2 years later! No not like a 351C, after Paul found out what I'm doing he said that I can use 1.5:1 rockers with the cam I listed above and will still be able to make 600 HP! The ports are only 1.50" X 2.00" so not as ridiculously huge like the 4v Cleveland heads are! These heads have really good velocity for the CFM they flow so I can basically use the lift as the flow restriction to pick my CFM of how much power I want to make, from around 500 to over 700 HP with basically just a rocker ratio and spring change with a 470 build using the cam I already have. Derek
So, the ports are seeing roughly 135 cfm/ sq. inch? Impressive. I'm sure you'll share more info when finished. Makes my mind run wild with possibilities. Cool sounding project.
Here is an interesting off the shelf combination Use the 7.1" Procomp rods shown in post #20 and either a Ross 99537 or Icon IC828-40 piston. It will give you another .010" overbore to clean up the block you have now. Deck the block just a little for zero deck clearance and have a screaming 470. Paul
I like the 470 plan, maybe I can lighten the rotating assembly enough to internally balance it with only small amounts of Mallory metal? Plus a block girdle, lifter girdle, epoxied lifter valley and the 2:1 rockers with the posted cam! Should run pretty good! Have to try and keep the thing together at that level. Does anyone know the best type of epoxy to use in the lifter valley and how to do it with a lifter girdle? Going to need some spring pressure to control the valves @ .7575" in. and .770" ex. lift with the 2.0:1 rockers. Would like to find a beehive type of spring to maintain control and reduce spring pressure, the week lifter valley needs all the help it can get to not break! Derek
I would call Automotive Machine & Performance, TA Performance, Tri Shield Performance and see what they recommend for lifter valley fill. I think you are going to have a tough time finding a bee hive spring for that much lift and the spring rate needed for control. Paul
WOW! There are quite a few recommendations out there. By the time you fill the block add all the girdles and machine work you can step into a TA aluminum block for not all that much more. Now you can make any HP without worry. The GSX motor had all the girdles and fill and made 814HP. I worried all the time that it would soon break. WE now have an aluminum block with another on order. Our heads only flowed 370. The new heads flow 447 but the ones we are making now will flow 500 to 550 and less if you want. We are strip only and run no water. Everything is solid. The next gen head will flow 700 with canted valves and should work well with 800+ motors. This stuff is for Buicks only. Sorry no street motors for this equipment! "Where no Buick has gone before"
Not the machine work I'm worried about paying for because I'll do that myself, its buying all the jock straps the block will need to keep it together! LOL I can probably make my own lifter girdle as well looks pretty basic and I have a few ideas to improve one if I do. This will be a street/strip build, not a strip only effort so I don't think I'll need 700 CFM for this. LOL But hey, great job on getting the flow Ken! I would be happy with 600 HP for the street, but if it makes more it makes more. Not going to try and test the limits on a factory BBB block, that will be for when I do a 500 cid NH with heads like these after the BBB is done. I heard a factory NH block can handle making 1,000 HP without a jock strap! The thing limiting the NH HP potential would be cam lift with the wimpier than a BBB 455 cam diameters! Derek
This one?; http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic828-040 Or this one?; http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ros-99537 The Icon pistons look like they're $63 less than the Ross. Both $600 plus doesn't even include rings, ouch! LOL So you don't like my Pontiac H-beams and forged light weight Diamond flat tops I already have for this? Would be 466 cid and the BBC 7.100" rods stroked .050" would be 472 cid, 6 more cubes. Yeah I know, I need to lighten the rotating ass. on this bitch to help keep this together. Those Diamond Pistons I have look like a really light forging, I'll have to weigh them tomorrow and see what they weigh. The Ross pistons are listed as 562 grams, if the Diamonds weigh close to those I'll have to run them with the Pontiac H-beams because that would probably be lighter than the longer rod? I will weigh a rod also. Fun stuff! Derek
I was just pointing out that there was off the shelf pistons to work with 7.1" rods. I certainly don't have a problem with the Pontiac rods and Diamond pistons especially since you already own them. Depends on what you want to accomplish. Just for comparison, Custom Diamond forged pistons are $122 each with just the pin fit option and pins are an additional $29 each. Yep Fun stuff! Paul
So you're saying the pistons I have are more expensive than the ones you posted? If so I may have to make them work. LOL The Diamonds I have might be off the self stuff, I'll have to look into that, if they're custom that would be over $1200 in pistons!(a little over $600 doesn't look to bad now, lol) I think they might be the TA performance flat tops that sell for $750 if TA has Diamond make those or had them make those in the past?; http://taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1611 Those look heavy compared to the Ross with the 7.100" rods would be if that's what I have? 794 grams w/pin, not sure if the Ross weight of 562 grams is with or without a wristpin though? Yeah and I would be able to try out that coating I sent the link to you for if I use the stuff I have. If more funds become available then I might want to accomplish more? Those light pistons do look like an attractive option for only just over $600! I like how those rods you gave the link for are good for 1,000 HP for only $350! If I could I would of bought them already, that's a great deal! Derek
The advertised piston weight is without pins. The pin that comes with the Ross piston weighs 146 grams. Found this for the Icons Click on description if it doesn't come up at first. http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/icon-ic828-040-forged-flat-top-pistons-4-360-bore.html
Holy crap dude!! Those are $130 less than the summit price! For the 15 extra grams in weight I think I would go with these vs. the Ross pistons from Summit that are $190 more! And the Icons have the better compression distance to boot, that must be the extra 15 grams the 4.171"(Ross) vs. the 4.185"(Icon) not really, .014" isn't going to weigh 15 grams but the extra C/D = less deck machining. Unless you know a better place to buy the Ross pistons that would make them under $500 as well? With the pin weight the Ross's are they weigh 708 and the Icons weigh 718 and if mine are the ones advertised by TA then those are 794 with pin, 86 grams more than the Ross pistons and 76 more than the Icon pistons. The Ross and 7.100" BBC rods would be $1040 more than what I have now and the Icon setup would be $850 more than what I have now minus $240 for having the pistons I already have coated. Hmmmmm? The rods I have are good for up to 850 HP with the ARP 8740 bolts they have but with a bolt change to the ARP2000 bolts they're good up to 1,200 HP or 1,500 HP with ARP L-19 bolts and possibly slightly lighter than the longer 7.100" rods weighing in at 750 or 760 grams according to a few ads I just read for them. Will get actuals weight later. Derek
Under the heading of being practical, If you can make what you have work by coating the pistons or a different block then yes. If you can't and need different pistons then go for the lighter combination. Have you sonic checked the block you have now for cylinder wall thickness? Paul
No I haven't sonic tested the block yet, no worries because I have 2 other ones so if the one that is setup for the flat tops to be .005" in the hole doesn't check good I'll look at using one of the other blocks I have. One is .020" over machined and ready to build and the other one is still a virgin just yearning to be bored! LOL The .020" over block doesn't have all the oil mods the .038" over block has though. And the virgin has no oil mods but that can be fixed real easy. That line2line coating can be applied .0007" to .020" thick so I can use those pistons no problem in that block, can probably use them without having them coated, just by re-honing bores?(not sure, I haven't measured them yet) Would be a shame not to be able to use the block that was originally setup for the flat tops because that block has every oil mod that can be done to a 455 block, the main saddle housing bores are even grooved to feed extra oil to the rods. I was told that TA originally did all of the machine work to this block, and if I remember correctly I think they originally assembled it as well?(not sure about that because it has aftermarket Pontiac rods and I wouldn't think they would use those?) Does TA sonic test a block that they all that machine work to and build or do they just machine the block and assemble it without sonic testing it? Derek
I would imagine TA would sonic check before putting labor into it and it has been working well up to this point. The difference is, you are about to add more power and cylinder wall loading and it would be nice to know what the wall thicknesses really are. It would also be good to know if there is enough material to go to a 4.360 oversize if needed Sounds like a really nice block. Paul
Well the bores don't have any ridge in them to speak of so just a touch up on the hone, make all the bores the same with a torque plate and good to go. Shouldn't be more than a couple thousands max to clean the bores up to be ready for new rings and make them all the same size. I wouldn't think an extra .002" would make much of a difference, that would be .001" per side so that shouldn't effect wall thickness at all. If it does the block was junk before it was originally machined but I will sonic check it anyway just because I can. If I decide to do an all out jock strapped build the block will be filled to 1" below the deck anyway, but it would be nice if TA made sure they weren't machining junk from the get go.(we'll see) Derek Derek
So ok I dug out one of the pistons rod assemblies I have and was going to separate to weigh them separately but they have the spiral locks on them so I just weighed them as an assembly for now and they weigh in at 1530 grams. So now I know for a fact that the rods are actually Eagle brand Pontiac H-beam rods and the pistons are NOT Diamond, they a an ultra light JE flat top piston. If we take the weight that was listed for the Pontiac Eagle H-beam rods in the ad I looked up for these rods @ 760 grams then subtract that by the 1530grams for the assembly it looks like the pistons I have weigh close to 770 grams with the pins. So the pistons I have are lighter than the TA light weight flat tops listed on their sight, 794 - 770 = 24 grams lighter! The second piston down looks like the pistons I have; http://taperformance.com/products.asp?cat=192 That is a generic picture because that is for a spherical dish piston that is heavier than what I have. 770 - 708 = 62 grams heavier and .504" more C/D than the Ross and 770 - 718 = 52 grams heavier and .490" more C/D than the Icons. Ok did a little digging and found a couple sets of 7.100" rods that list the weight, a set of 7.100" Molnar rods weigh 835 grams an Eagle rod weighs 840 grams which would be 75-80 grams more than the 6.625" Pontiac rods. So the parts I have look to be good for 850 HP or can be more if I upgrade the rod bolts. They compared a lot better than I thought they would with the other parts. I think 850 HP is more than I want or need to make if that happens on the dyno I may have to detune it a bit, get a lesser rocker ratio. I don't think I'll get there though, maybe in the high 600 to mid 700 HP range? I would be happy with anywhere close to 600 HP. So after doing some digging it looks like it would be a waste a $$ to buy different parts than what I already have? Anyway years ago I figured out how to remove spiral locks from a piston but my eyesight was much better back then and my memory isn't giving up that info now!(DAGNABIT!) So can anyone tell me the easiest way how to remove a spiral lock from a piston? I would like to weigh the rod and piston separately just because I can, thanks in advance. Derek
We dynoed my mild 464 at Visner. Originally the TA engine that won the Big Block Shootout back in '02. I had Geoff & Bobb at Finishline modify the crank and install Eagle H-beam Pontiac rods also ported the TA heads. I'm just running a solid flat tappet Brown cam. Over 600hp. should be no problem with your combo. Torque came in at 562 @ 4,300.
No easy way. You need something with a sharp point and fairly rigid. The end of the spiral has a cutaway on the OD that usually get buried and hidden in the groove. Find it and pry up and work the spiral out. Have fun! Paul
