Biggest thing with cloning is getting all of the pieces together so that it is a "correct" numbers engine. As far as a '68 H/O, I thought it would be cool to build one for the shows and racing, but I see some flaws that are coming up in people's thoughts. Yes, the '68 had some post H/O's ( I think that the number is about 25) I have been told that they are about 200 lbs. lighter than the "pillarless coupe" The engine in '68 all had "D" heads, even the a/c cars. $1500-2000 a set plus all of the "work" that you are going to have done on them. The '68 had 14" rims, I need to get my book out and check on the carb # and intake. You would have to put the car on a serious diet to make it light for F.A.S.T. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see someone from the Olds camp do it, but it is going to take some serious thought, planning, and coin to make a competitive car. As far as the '69 goes, you are going to need some serious coin just to get the parts to make it a "clone" i.e. mirrors, intake, heads, air breather, chrome plated 15" rims, exhaust manifolds. I think some people need to find their way to the drag strip with their current combinations to find what kind of numbers they will run in "stock" form. My '69 ran its best time at Stanton this fall. The car with driver weighed in at 4207 (I weigh about 230) the car still had all of the air equipment on it (about 200#) still running the 3.23 gear set in it on Good Year Eagle GT II 235/60 R15's and I ran a 13.565 @101.7. I know gear will make a serious difference, so will cam, exhaust porting, etc, but you still have to launch and run a heavy car down the track on bias plys. Greg and his Buick have been together for a long time and I am guessing everything on the car has been looked at more than twice. The more you look at what Greg Gessler has done, the more you have to appreciate the feat preformed! :TU:
Rusty,Dave,Realdealhurst I have put some thought into doing my 68 h/o as a F.A.S.T car. Complete with D heads and the right manifolds etc.etc.etc. its a not a post car but is a/c delete. But the idea of doing a big dollar stroker motor and racing in the " ladder" format does not thrill me. I mean lets say I can make the car run mid 11 s I would never win. To many lighter cars with better engine designs could put me on the trailer after the 1st or 2nd round. I think I,ll stick to pure stock were I can race door to door with someone. :TU:
NO, NO, NO,.....The 68 W-46 cars ran ONLY C heads! They are strait Toro 385 horse motors with standard iron intakes in place of the recessed Toro intake. The W-45 cars are Toro short blocks with W-30 automatic top ends! D heads, 308 cam, etc. Both are rated at 390 hp. I am 100% certain of these facts as I own 68 number 440 and know these cars inside and out. The HOCA will back this up. Second I challenge anyone to explain how two identically optiond cars will not weigh the same because one has a frame around the window? The rest of the car is the same.
Realdeal What part number is on your intake? I own car number 183 Thanks My car is a non air car what letter heads do I need ? I bought this car without a motor Thanks
Fair enough, to each his own. It's a good thing that Gessler doesn't think that way. Otherwise you might see Hemis and Chevies winning everything! p Is a GS with power windows any lighter than your H/O? Is Buick's 455 superior to the Olds? o No: Let's be honest here, no one ever said F.A.S.T. racing is for everyone. If it were cheap and easy to do, you'd see far more competitors. F.A.S.T. class racers tend to be people who enjoy showcasing their mechanical abilities and talents with their chosen brands. It doesn't matter what brand you have, the right person can make it go very quick. No one in F.A.S.T. racing would have believed a Buick could run an 11.17 three years ago. You can't do it if you don't try.
The original motor is in storage. But I believe the intake is 398662. I'd have to look to be sure. The only part of the Olds that is hevier is the motor. 625+ pounds of iron. The post above will tell you what heads you need.
not that I am any authority, but I just happen to have the 442 by the numbers book handy. 68 H/O production: 56 sport coupes, 459 holiday coupes. I was right with the guess of 56. I have a tendancy to memorize certain numbers. o No: I'm anal, sue me :laugh: The non a/c car used the same factory cam as the Ram Rod/W-31, 308/308, .474/.474, 82 degrees of overlap The a/c car used the same cam as all 69 H/O, all 70 AT (includ W-30) 71 442 AT (includ W-30 with a/c) .285/.287, .472/.472, 57 degrees overlap with A/C used C heads, non a/c used D heads intake manifold casting number is 398662, its found on all 68/69 400/455 4bbl except the 69 H/O carb with a/c 7028251, w/o 7028255 (this happens to also be the same carb as the Ram Rod) distr, w/ a/c 1111289, w/o 1111468 exhaust manifolds are the same for all 68 442, W-30 and H/O, LH X 389269, RH Y 398706
RealdealHurst, You have kind of painted yourself in a corner. If you are wanting to pull the a/c stuff off, you will have to go with the 'D' heads. Also, someone correct me if I am wrong, the '68 A/C cars carried 10 less hp than the a/c cars. In '69, they did away with the lumpy 308 cam and ran air and non-air cars with the same cam. That is why the '69 has 10 less than the '68 non-air. I am sorry I was wrong about letters on the heads. I thought it was all 'd' heads in '68. The fact is that you are still going to have some major coin in the engine. Personally, since you have the original engine and do not currently have the extra money to run a full out monster, I would go pure stock racing. Like the phrase that someone else used, "It is the most fun you can have with your clothes on." :3gears: Junior Supercar, Thanks for looking up the numbers. What source did you get them from? Oops, I see the source! I have that book and it comes in handy at times.
Read the rules...." must be correct for make, model,year, and hp claimed." Both are 390 hp. I believe this meets the rules.
I just reread the "history" section from the Hurst/Olds Club of America and they listed that the '68 air cars lost 10 hp from the 390 that the non-air cars produced . You sir, are wrong.
Pulling off A/C stuff I'll never understand why people are in such a big hurry to rip off the A/C stuff from their cars unless you're going to make it a dedicated race car and every # counts. The cars are worth more with A/C functioning and really, does that extra 0.1 sec in e.t. really matter unless you're in a race car? Pull the belt when you race and it's only the weight. If you do any cruising or touring in your cars, that A/C makes life much more enjoyable. Rusty just found that out on the way home. BTW, that aftermarket A/C box cover probably would not be acceptable in Pure Stock. It is definitely not stock appearing, but looks gret if that's what you want to do. Confirm with Dan or Bob to be sure. Not sure about FAST.
It's all a matter of personal taste [and where you live p Dave]. If you live in Florida or somewhere down south, yes it might be nice at times. I'm 3 hrs. from the Canadian border and you'd really only need A/C here a rare few times each summer. Lets face it, we don't use these cars to commute in. Personally, nothing looks worse under the hood of a muscle car than that big ugly power robbing A/C compressor and all of those brackets and lines strangling that beautiful engine below it. Spark plug changes are usually a hassle with all of those brackts as well. And if you use your muscle car for what it was intended for, and realize how much weight really does matter, it's very hard to keep all of that clutter in there. JMO.
The AC isn't coming off my car. I like to have it on while dusting the guy in the next lane. :bglasses: :laugh: When/if I build a stroker to run in FAST, I will likely be stuffing it in a 72 W30 clone. Heads for those are nothing special, read cheap, unlike F heads. And I wouldn't need to spring for red fenderwells. Anybody got a nice 72 Cutlass laying around? :Brow:
:TU: way to go Example....Jeff Sawruks 350 HO powered Custom S.......air in place and functional.......P/S to the tune of 13.16 (?) I believe.... :laugh:
YEP - that's right ! Jeff always sneaks under the radar with that car, but it is SMOKIN' !! :TU: I think he's gettin' about 106-107MPH out of it on those teen runs. Pretty impressive stuff. His car weighs in about 250-300# more than my F85, so they are pretty even. :beer
Amen !! I don't see why a "built" BB Olds couldn't get deep into the 11's, even if you had to run G70-14's :Smarty: In June at Stanton I had two back to back run's with the 72 Old's with sub 1.9 60' time's. 1.89 and a 1.87 :eek2: And Stanton isn't the stickiest place on earth. Driveline combo, and learning to "drive" a car out of the hole is the key to a low E.T. :TU: Car was just under 3900 lbs with driver, 3.73 gear, Advance Auto Part's $59 "tight" torque convertor. It could be done with the right combo :3gears: B.T.W. Man has been on the moon! ......So What, Gessler ran an 11.17 with an old electra 225 motor :TU:
The winning with a/c idea is neat. But there is more bang for the buck withqut it. This is why I want to use the heater box and C heads. They are more economical and I refuse to cut this car up to make it go. If I ever deceide to put the car back original I will have what I need.
