engine masters challenge

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Burtonstranny, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. bob k. mando

    bob k. mando Guest

    burton

    step back and take a deep breath. there, feel better? ready to listen for a second? okay, i'm going to make some points.

    first,
    when we call the rest of these guys 'dyno queens' we're not kidding. most of these are hand grenades and the pin was pulled four seconds ago. when PHR first posted this stuff i was commenting on this. over 25% of these engines didn't even get through the prelims without blowing up. of those that did get qualifying numbers, 3 broke in the dyno and had to be repaired. rather poor 'performance' for something called the 'Engine Masters Challenge', don't you think?

    AM&P not only brought an engine that survived, they not only brought the only flat tappet engine, they not only brought the out and out lowest CR in the entire competition (by over a point in many cases), they not only finished 9th (practically speaking, tied for 8th, they were only 2pts off the Robotnick Ford) of 19 competitors, it's going to be a daily driver in a customer car.

    second,
    it's well known that though light, the factory Big Block Buick is NOT capable of extreme performance. the open lifter valley, 2 bolt mains and short side skirts cripple it for performance levels over ~750 peak hp w/o doing all kinds of crazy things likes putting on bore girdles and oil pan girdles. there's simply too much block flex. as far as factory blocks are concerned ... it's probably the worst out there.

    all the Buick guys know this. pontiac has aftermarket blocks. chevy has aftermarket blocks. chrysler has aftermarket blocks. hell, i think there's even an aftermarket Olds block (or at least talk of one). they don't have to worry about things like this. our guys still do. if the Bulldog block was here i'm sure you'd have had Buick guys coming out of the woodwork for this deal ... as it is, the performance level that was expected to be needed was a bit past what our factory block is known to be capable of taking.

    third,
    it costs more to build a Buick. it's an ugly fact, but there it is. and given that most of the Buick shops are small, niche operations making do with high cost, labor intensive parts because there isn't $100billion in existing engine research for their brand (like there has been for the chevy and chrysler motors) they can't afford to build an engine that they fully expect is not going to either win the comp or survive the attempt. most of our shops can't afford to throw time and money away on something like that.

    what good would it do TA (the premier performance parts supplier for Buick) to show up with the best engine they could muster and finish mid pack? is that supposed to be good ad copy? they may let John Kaase get away with murder, but if Mike shows up with one of his hand machined 4 bolt main blocks with lifter and oil pan girdles he'll be leaving faster than he came in the door. :spank: and that's what it would take to do the 05 challenge right.

    that having been said, i have high hopes for next years comp. 10.5:1 max compression (.9 lower than what AM&P competed with this year) and 434 cubes should be right in Buicks wheelhouse with either the overbored 430 that the AM&P guys are talking about or a destroked long rod 455 (and you thought the factory block was oversquare :Brow: ) being good options.
     
  2. Buicks4Speed

    Buicks4Speed Advanced Member

    Good Stuff...

    First of all, congrats to AM&P. :beer Sure it would have been nice to see if they could have squeeze a few more ponies out with a roller but there are a few varibles that a roller throws in the mix that could make for a Big $$ in R&D when considering pump gas aside from the block issues. More lift and less duration, all in which you have to keep detonation under control. SO you can go backwards as easy as forwards when going with a max effort Pump gas deal. It's easier to stick with what works.

    Don, good to see your input on things from the inside. Buick or not. Caddy is different and has limited aftermarket parts as well so it is well respected to engineer it to make power with the rest of the big boys. YOu can hang out with us Buick Guys anytime. :TU: I noticed on the dynos that you didn't show a A/F. Did you have any A/F ratio data to see how the fuel curve was on the carb across the rpm range? Nice lift on the cam even considering 1.8 rockers, I see your not giving out any duration numbers... :Brow:
     
  3. myriviera

    myriviera Well-Known Member

    Buick well represented

    I was excited to see a Buick even in the mix. You guys are awesome for even trying to do this. I feel you guys barely gave them a taste of things to come. All things considered you guys won in my book. Real motor for the real world. Next year kick their ass and but good. I hope we see Bulldog blocks and Roller Cams and more than one team. Sounds as if you conducted yourselves in a way that all the the Buick community should be proud. Lots of coverage of you guys. Thats great. Next year maybe you guys could do Victoria Secret :moonu: :shock:
     
  4. fastest430

    fastest430 Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to say, :TU: Great Job Mr. Phillips :TU: & Good luck at the challenge in 2006 :)
     
  5. Steve Reynolds

    Steve Reynolds SRE Inc

    Good job AM&P!!

    First off, I would like to thank Mike and the guys at AM&P for the national support for our lowly Buicks. I think that this type of exposure really helps get the word out about some of the alternative power plants. The entire world does NOT revolve around Chevies, Fords and Mopars! I think that the magizine coverage was very favorable to Buick fans and not nearly as bias as they could have been. Again, thanks AM&P for a job well done!!
    :TU:

    QUOTE;
    but if Mike shows up with one of his hand machined 4 bolt main blocks with lifter and oil pan girdles he'll be leaving faster than he came in the door.
    bobkmando

    Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you considering an "oil pan girdle"?
    I built all of the aluminum oil pans for Mike on his "Engine Masters" motors, and I don't understand what you mean by an "oil pan girdle". Are you refering to the Poston cast aluminum pan? Let me know.
    Thanks, Steve
     
  6. bob k. mando

    bob k. mando Guest

    what are you considering an "oil pan girdle"?

    http://www.postonbuick.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=PE236D

    i should have said 'block girdle', the oil pan/block girdle is the cheap way out.




    hey Steve, you're up next to Mishicot. what's the possibility of getting an 'Assman Rd' street sign? can i contact the Mishicot street dept. or what? :grin:
     
  7. Steve Reynolds

    Steve Reynolds SRE Inc

    Ok

    I thought maybe that you meant a block girdle, but I had to ask. Thought maybe I missed something!

    How in the world do you know about "Assman Road", or even know where Mishicot is??? Are you familiar with this area?
    If you really want a street sign, I might have some connections, just don't ask how.
    Steve
     
  8. bob k. mando

    bob k. mando Guest

    How in the world do you know about "Assman Road", or even know where Mishicot is???


    muwahahahahahaha.

    from 2000-03 i was in Sun Prairie designing business and cell tower DSL circuits (for instance, i did several circuits into the towers that are on the Slinger Super Speedway property) for all of the Verizon / GTE territories in the southern / eastern section of WI. this entails looking at a LOT of maps and street names (since i have to design to a specific street address from the local Central Office). i designed a circuit to a cell tower up on ... [scratches head] Nuclear Rd? from the Mishicot CO and while looking at the map just fell out of my chair laughing.

    who would believe they actually named a road something like that? or that they keep the name? so anyways, ever since i've had a hankerin to have one of those signs for my own. unfortunately, when i 'cased it' :shock: (yes, once upon a time i was standing on the corner of Co Rd B and Assman Rd @ 2:00 am), it looks to be about impossible to remove without taking down the stop sign ... and i'm not going to do that.

    so that leaves doing it the 'honest way'. heh.

    do they actually pronounce it 'Assman' or is it something more like 'Azzmun'? i would think that a name like that would HAVE to come from the German or Swiss or something.

    if you could get one of those signs into my greasy, grubby little hands i know where to find a real, honest to God 'Titman Rd' sign. :Dou: :laugh: what? you just know i had to go looking for one after i found 'Assman'! i visualize these street signs as being framed with a copy of the street map that shows that these streets actually exist, i'll put 'Assman' at one end of the garage and 'Titman' and the other. it'll be great for giving directions as to which side of the garage i want someone to go to. :laugh:

    i'd be more than happy to reimburse the street dept (and you) too. even if it wouldn't be as fun as getting the sign myself. :eek:
     
  9. Steve Reynolds

    Steve Reynolds SRE Inc

    Signage

    I think that it's pronounced as one quick word, "Assman", and more often than not miss-pronounced as " Ass Man". We have many wierd named towns and roads around here. The majority of them are Indian names, such as, Mishicot, Manitowoc, Two Rivers, Green Bay, Kaukauna, Neehna/Menasha, Sheboygan, etc, etc.
    I was up in Door county yesterday to visit my sister, and on the way there and back I drove thru a little town called "Euren". How would you like to live in "Euren"!!! or drive thru Euren, or stop in Euren, etc The jokes for this town are endless.

    I'll see what I can do about the sign. It might take alittle time, but I'll try!
    Later, Steve
     
  10. bob k. mando

    bob k. mando Guest

    Waunakee, WI town motto: "The only Waunakee in the world!"

    check my location, we had a few Potawatomie around here too. Wakarusa translates as "Knee deep in mud". :error:

    anywho, i've got time if you've got time. thanks for looking into this Steve.
     

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