i just read the results of the 2005 engine masters challenge and i must say i am baaaadly disapointed that none of these so called buick engine people could not represent(t/a poston etc.). The only guy to show up was a garaged built buick engine that could barely post i hate to say it but the cheap chevy engine with a shot of nitrous in my 84 regal is beggining to make since. The engine masters challenge have been going on for four years now and not one of these buick salespeople who like to sale us this expensive parts can represent.What happened to ta i thought they was gonna be there TALK IS CHEAP :rant: :rant: :blast: :Smarty:
Linkage; http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=90805 And the Buick engine AM&P builds is a REAL street engine, not a dyno queen!
I think you really need to look at what Mike at am&p built.This is a STREET ENGINE built for a customer.This is not a roller camed dyno bomb like every other engine in the competion.Mike finished 9th overall out of these $30k bombs.This is very good going up against the likes of John Kaase Dave bishoff etc.The next thing you need to look at is the support people like Kaase gets damn near anything he wants because of who he is.Next bank roll he pays for his motor out of his poket which are deep (he builds $125k 814cid prostock motors) the buick guys pockets are no where near as deep.Mike at TA was supposed to do a motor but for whatever reason did not get completed.He has a business and I'm sure time constaints became an issue.You also need to read the rules these are not easy motors to build and take lots of time and testing to win. If it's so easy to build a motor for Engine Masters you need to crack the wallet and build one yourself and enter next year lets see where you end up.Talk is cheap as you yourself said
How many of the competing engines were bolted into a car for real use? I think that makes AM&P the 1 of 1 winner in the "real car engine, not dyno engine." Excepting maybe one of the Cad entries.
I'm not sure where you're coming from. Maybe your thinking the average numbers are the peak values. This 10:1 motor made well over 700hp with a real street flat tappet cam. A roller cam and another 1.5 points in compression and this garage motor your talking about is way over 800 ponies. Don't be such a bogart and pass whatever your smoking around.
I had to chime in on this, here we go. first, rules....they only exist for the "special" entrants, a couple of them were already mentioned. Jon has said flat I'm going to do what I want let them throw me out. Pretty ballsey, but when you show up with a ****en canted valve Pontiac head that was never made & get away with it I guess you can do what u want. The Chevy's all had valve angles changed from stock. I saw one guy slip a scrwdriver under the head before the NHRA tech guy started measuring ****. I looked at my partner & was like what the **** is that about? cheating & getting away with it. Livernois's Ford totally legal, only a little epoxy in the runners & fluff in the port throughout, a off the shelf head. When you look in the new Popular Hotrodding mag & see the hp#'s those were usually the first pull #'s cause most of the #'s went down from there as soon as those motors got heat in them. The problem we had was two fold, the oil pump we got that was supposed to the done special for us was only putting out 40lbs max, but as i watched the oil temps they were not even 190 on the break in pulls. I asked is your gauging right, they said so we just watched everything closely. The other problem was a screwup on rod clearancing on a rod(we had a big problem with a employee that felt as a older guy he knew everything, you know one of those assholes). Theres things as you guys all know you never read about because its not for public knowledge. The new staff at the mag is trying to straighten out alot of the bullshit & the the Publisher Ed Zinke will get it straight. My partner & I were thanked for the way we handled ourselves(cops were called three times at the prior years sb challenge, remember how much $ are at stake) seeing that we didnt take the extra to fix our rod & crank just not to miss the engine dropoff deadline, which a bunch of guys ignored & were not thrown out as the rules stated. The "rules" are loose based on who you are period. Thats what their going to fix, I'm told. Getting back to Mike & his street motor, 700+ put it in the customers car & go, whats wrong with that. I can tell you a few of the others not only will never see a car, I don't think they would last long anyway. Dyno queens,high priced pieces that most guys couldn't afford to build, which if I remember right when this **** started years ago it was supposed to be something a normal guy could relate to. My partner John Walker & i built a non-coated, non-filled motor that I will be dropping in one of my cars when the car is finished. Most guys that DNF that had comp broke rings. They believe that coatings will let you run 13 to 1 & 36 degrees,whatever. I have attached dyno sheets from testing, the EMC with lash taken out to try & build bottom end which cost me 25hp at least & the pictures of the bearings. If you look at the sheet we stopped the pulls after seeing the up & down from 5800 to 6500. We cut the filter open for the second time & then found metal. Now one last thing I had 1 1/4" of spacer to still put on & fuel to pull(BSFC's were supposed to be in the .399 range). If we had budget restrictions were would Mike have placed then? I'm still gashing my teeth because our chance to get at these guys for now will have to wait. How much did we lose with destroyed bearings & how much more was there with the additional tuning,(we only have 15 pulls on the motor) enough to be right in the mix I feel, with our street motor with nothing coated, no block fill, no girdle & only 28 degrees of timing on 91 octane with a .725 gravity specfic fuel. Donovan Torque Inc.
Shure would like to know the build up of that motor. I think 700hp on 91 octane is amazing and it sure has a nice torque curve for a "street engine". :TU: Sounds like tension runs sky high at one of these events and the magazine will never tell it like it is. uzzled: Ray
4.32 bore 4.335 stroke 3" mains 6.8 Oliver billet rods cp pistons w/1/16 top ring glass beaded roller cam .781 I .756 E 113lsa by John Dougerty DRCamshafts http://www.drcamshafts.com/ bulldog heads 375cfm@.750 280+@.750 w/o a pipe bulldog intake (2)3/4" & (1)1/2" spacers(only got to use (1) 3/4" spacer so theres more there) T & D Rockers 1.8 ratio 1050 8896 by Kevin & Dennis @CSU carbs 1.909.851.6955 MSD dist 7 wires Accel plugs comp was right @12 to 1 no filling no parts coated(no extra money to do it) when the motor was first fired at Merkel's the dyno operators just started laughing in disbelief that the motor idled right @1200rpm untouched, serious. Give Kev a chance guys if u need a carb guy. Their know for their blow-thru stuff, but do mean ass N/A their just small right now. Don
Seems like the entrants should serve as the tech comittee. You have all those engine experts in the same room, with at the very least their own selfish interest (if not integrity) to keep everything honest. It now sounds more like a "Survivor" type contest than an engineering exercise. It'd make a great addition to Monster Garage and the Bike Build-off on TV!
I see now that this is for a Caddy, but I didn't realise that Bulldog was making intakes. Also, what is the address for the Bullbog website, I can't seem to find it???
Donovan I would have like to see where you guys would have ended up.The caddy stuff is cool to anything different.Did you guys get it fixed yet?
Glad to see that maybe PHR is going to clean up their act with the EMC, it's become about as interesting as a soap opera, the *only* reason I pay attention to it is to see what the Buick guys are up to, which has been impressive to say the least. I still think that if they want to see who's really good at building a street engine, they need to use 87 octane from a randomly-selected C-store, and use 1500-5500 rpm as their test range. Who on earth actually drives a street car with 13-1 CR and revs it to 6500rpm? That's just silly.
Kev we didn't get to fix it yet. We'll get it done & re-dyno for the mag by march. We'll be arranging it thru them & a DTS facility in Ohio so we can use the same spec fuel so the re-test will be close to accurate. The bulldog site is bulldogperformance.com. For the guy trying to slam you need to come back out & apologize here to Mike openly & support him thru buying from him. Lastly I have to thank you guys for not bodyslamming me for talking about the "wrong" motor on the "wrong" site. My post got a little long but even with that there events that you'd to have seen to believe a canted valve Pontiac. Donovan Torque Inc.
Don got a chance to look at the dyno sheets you posted.Very impressed.We think we are bastard children you caddy guy's get even less respect.I really like to see off brand motors making big power.I have learned the most looking at what other brands are doing and applying it to buick stuff. :TU:
engine masters OK thinks for staightning me out thats why i like this website and the people on here but to 10incnbuick please dont make excuses for ta and the others if you beleive in a product enough to sell it and profit then i say they need to put up or shut up dont leave the buick name hanging out to dry hell john kaase have a business also and also it was good that mike and dave was able to make 700hp with a street engine on 11.1 comp but the rules did not call for this the rules called for a all out dyno queen to post the best numbers so stop making excuses if this had been for street engines great but it was not.Maybe we will win when the cubic inch limit is for 300 cubic inches or less and the v6 can bring us pride back
I am not here to make excuses for TA.For what ever reason they didn't get it done,but I'm not going to come on here and bash Mike for not getting it done.Was I disappopinted that he didn't make it?Yes.But I will not rip him apart for not doing it.Mike has alot more on his plate JK and the likes build motors thats it they don't run a mail order parts house and develope parts for their comunity.They don't need to 100's of other companies do it for them.Plain and simple we DO NOT HAVE THE SUPPORT THAT THE OTHERS DO. The next issue is the fact that Engine masters challenge is swayed towards the Chevy and Ford guys.Primemedia can't have a Off brand engine win this then their major reader base will be disappointed because a chevy or ford didn't win.They are in the business of selling magazines.I would love to see a Buick Pontiac Caddy or a olds win but the guys who build these for the most part don't have the pull to win.Read Donovans first post. On the pontiac that Kaase built the heads are not even available to the public yet.How is that legal the rules say readily available parts these heads are not.The cam in the motor is not available 55mm roller bearing this is a custom core.You can get a 50mm but not a 55mm.This proves the fact that it is all on who you are.Special rules for special people.The rules are just for show
Hi Guys, I don't know if too many others were aware of this but Kaase initially WAS going to do a Buick for this Challenge but he was ONLY going that route IF the BullDog block was available. He fell back on the Pontiac because there was indeed an aftermarket block that addressed the factory weeknesses. Would have been nice to have seen some of his thinking "outside of the box". Of coarse IF he had indeed done a Buick and won with it the excuses would have been flying then.ou: IF & WHEN the BullDog finally gets done hopefully we get to witness some of Kaase's "magic" with it!:TU: Just my thoughts... As far as my thoughts of Mike, AM&P and the entire "Kentucky Krew".....ABSOLUTELY TOP NOTCH! There hospitality to me when I've down is unmatched. Congrat's and a BIG Thanks to Mike and the whole "Krew" for representing us well!:TU:
I am not knocking Kaase.If I had a 10th of the knowledge he has I'd have something.He does get special treatment thats all I'm saying.Had he done a buick I would love to see what he would have done with it.In fact he almost won with the Poncho if it didn't eat a head gasket.There would be plenty of crying if this had happened.
Crying?? Hey guys, first i'd like to thank all you for the kind words. We just try to do good work for a fair price. On the subject of crying, I entered knowing the rules and knew i was going to a gun fight with a knife. BUT it was a very sharp knife and I left a few open wounds. Hell guys I am not crying, I went to do what I did and I did it. Did you guys notice that there were three pictures of Dave and I and another of the engine with the other spotllight engines that will be featured in up coming issues. This is my second competition with "customers" engines going into street cars. The recognition that I got was great as compared to others that finished ahead of me. Next year I promise you that I am going with another "street engine" but with the 10.5 to 1 rule change and the smaller inch limit and time to test. I am gonna sink that knife DEEP. Mike Phillips
You tell 'em, Mike. Once the playing field is somewhat leveled, AMP has an outstanding chance of placing in the upper ranks with the high dollar guys that build dyno bomb type engines. You have already done the Buick community well with less to work with and realistic street engines. I would love to see other Buick engines in the competition.
