Edelbrock heads

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by 82thetots, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. 82thetots

    82thetots Young Grasshopper

    Im starting to save and build my 72 455 to race in my 70 skylark. Looking at the Edelbrock aluminum heads. Anyone have any problems with these? TA's heads are not in the budget. Whats all needed to run these? special push-rods and rockers? Are ARP head studs able to be used with these? Any advice appreciated. I believe my 430 finally died on me, so time for some new HP! [​IMG]
     
  2. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

  3. sriley531

    sriley531 Excommunicado

    I can't comment on the studs as I used arp bolts, but you'll need to measure for your pushrod length (depending on what you have the block decked, if any. Its still always a good idea to measure to make sure you get the right length pushrods, cheap insurance) and you'll need sbc style rockers (which are about as cheap and plentiful as it gets). The biggest knock you'll hear on the Eddy's is they are a bit noisy. I can confirm that to be true, although not enough to bother me personally. It's really only noticeable with the hood up (although I have a loud exhaust that may drown out some noise). Otherwise I've been happy with mine. I had them ported (do it, its the best money you'll spend!) and they were the key that helped my engine make good power with a relatively low cr. Just be prepared to take a little heat for not having TA's. ;)
     
  4. carmantx

    carmantx Never Surrender

    I like our Edelbrock heads. Have been through a lot on our 464. I used the recommended ARP bolts. They do have studs, but I didn't want to use them on street car. I would not be able to pull a head Without pulling engine. If you have stuff removed for just a race car, you might have room. I used the recommended pushrods. And 1.6 SBC roller rockers. Had them ported and have made some nice Numbers on dyno and race track.
     
  5. 82thetots

    82thetots Young Grasshopper

    Ok, sweet. The car is pretty much a race car... often street driven. If I were to use these heads, does any valve cover work? Im thinking of getting a pair of the lettered style from TA.
     
  6. 82thetots

    82thetots Young Grasshopper

    Here is the car, Glass hood bumper caged and practically nothing but motor under the hood.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. sriley531

    sriley531 Excommunicado

    Looks like a cool ride! If you mean these valve covers, then you're good (and although I'm obviously partial, I highly recommend them!)

    [​IMG]
     
  8. jzuelly1

    jzuelly1 Jesse Zuelly IV

    That car is looking good. That is the same black car you had on you tube right. If so props man.
     
  9. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    Things to consider in comparing price between Edelbrock heads and TA heads are rocker arms, pushrods, head bolts (studs), and the fact that if you are buying assembled Edelbrock heads someone with cylinder head experience will need to disassemble them and inspect for proper clearance, etc. It has been well-documented that bolting on a set of assembled E-heads from EB (doesn't matter the brand) may not be the wisest thing to do.
     
  10. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    E heads do perform nicely with some porting.. but as Bob said, forget about the price you see to buy them.. your not buying something you want to bolt on and go with, regardless of what the box says.

    Edelbrock head will have, invariably...

    Tight valve guides
    out of round valve seats

    They may have..

    Bent valves
    Crooked decks.

    Most "brand X" engine builders I know of, that work with E heads on a lot with various makes, consider them to be "good buildable cores", not something you can just bolt on and go, although admittedly, there are plenty of folks that get away with it.

    Also plenty of stories out there of massive engine failures due to valves breaking.. Even a few where Edelbrock has sent them a check, after they jump thru enough hoops.

    Keep in mind that all large corporations are playing a numbers game..

    A simple analogy is this:

    If we do 1000 heads, and our procedures are such that only 6 fail, then we make more money dealing with the bad press and sending out a few checks, than it would cost to institute serious quality control measures, and or change our procedures to insure 100% quality.

    Which is all fine and good, and it puts a $2000 or so set of complete alum heads in the marketplace.

    Unless your one the 6.... then it's nite-mare city.

    I do Edelbrock heads, I get the castings bare from them, do quality machine work and fill them with quality parts.. cost is a couple hundred more than buying them from Jegs or Summit..

    JW
     
  11. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    Jim,

    Your analogy is spot-on IMO. We see this in new car parts and even new car manufacturing. "Value" engineering means 80% or so R&D and send it out the door and hope for the best. Saves corporations a lot of short-term expenses. The engineers blame the bean counters when something fails, and there just might be some truth to that.

    In your estimation, since you deal with this stuff all of the time and now that EBs have been in the marketplace for a while now, compare the cost of purchasing assembled EB heads to TA Stage 1 SE heads for the average Joe that has worn-out iron heads and is comparing TA to EB. Not a race application or any flow bench work at all, but just an upgrade to AL. Assume reusing rockers, shafts, pushrods when pricing TA S1SE heads and assume the minimum cost to at least disassemble and inspect the EBs.

    Don't want to start an EB vs TA war, but it would be interesting to see the real cost delta from someone who's worked with both heads.
     
  12. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Bob,

    The "repair" service on the E heads is $495.. that's disassemble, cut the seats, Square up the valves on the grinder, hone the guides, resurface, replace the ridiculous rubber/teflon valve seals with good viton ones, and clean them up and re-assemble. I have done a number of sets, every set needed some level of tweaking to really get them to be solid useable pieces. Every set was different, we saw some that were "decent" others that were a mile off. If by chance everything was fine, then that number would be about $140 for the R&R and inspect. I doubt I will really ever see that set..

    Current E head complete prices have gone up, I see they have crossed the 1K level at most outlets. So figure 2k for the heads, free shipping, another 175 for pushrods and steel rockers, with at least $140 for the inspect.

    $2300ish if your super lucky, and you E heads don't need guides resized and actually have round seats in them.. (Good luck)

    More likely $2655 plus shipping to and from the shop here, for a ready to bolt on set.. no port work here at all.

    I sell my "done from scratch" sets, with the standard flat tappet hyd valve springs, for $2550, plus shipping to you from MN. I use TA valves and quality hardware. Plenty of upgrade options and porting available.

    I think the basic TA head is $2495, plus shipping.. Which will vary a lot, depending on where you live.

    So if you buy E heads, and have them fixed, your going to be into them for more money than TA heads. That's the dirty little secret.

    The the biggest advantage of the E head is not price.. they have a nice, high velocity port set in them. They will make more power, per measured CFM, in my experience. They are less expensive to port.

    The biggest disadvantage is we don't have the correct rocker for them.. Buick's run an offset rocker arm, a left and right.. the pushrod seat is not on the centerline of the rocker.

    SBC Rockers are "on Center".

    What results with a hydraulic cam is a phenomenon where a side load develops, restrained by the pushrod guide plate, but when the cam goes over the top, the valve train "snaps back", which is the audible noise you hear.

    I strongly recommend cast aluminum valve covers with E heads.

    So in the real world comparision, you have to add the cost of cast alum valve covers at $140 plus shipping, to the E head price, to get an apples to apples result..

    More or less..

    JW
     
  13. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    Good write-up Jim, and as I suspected the EB's have some hidden costs in them. Good to have another choice, however, as long as the purchaser knows about the add-ons.

    Regarding the rocker arm alignment issue on the EB's, has there been any long term problems that you know of or are there any offset rockers available (probably not or it wouldn't be an issue)?
     
  14. sp40977

    sp40977 Well-Known Member

    Makes me wonder if I went totally down the wrong road with my 455. What I was told is the the E heads take the small block Chevy roller rockers. Would that be correct?

    All the info about inspecting makes me nervous about bolting on. Had no Idea, that they would make heads with that many discrepancies.
     
  15. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Bob,

    Don't know of any long term issues with the rocker mis-alignment, I suspect not enough in-service time to really know yet. Noise is the big complaint.

    JW
     
  16. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482


    Yes, that is what they are "designed" to work with.. just be aware there will be some noise.

    If you have the heads in hand, take them to a reputable high performance builder locally, and have them inspected. Any high performance shop that deals with vintage iron will know exactly what your talking about.

    Go visit a couple, and have a discussion..

    And yes, it's the "not knowing" that is the killer.

    JW
     
  17. sp40977

    sp40977 Well-Known Member

    Amen to that... I do have them in hand, and will make some calls tomorrow. The motor is slated to go together this coming week or next, as much money as I have in this thing, the last thing I need is to have to start over and fight with EB for coverage...

    Great info and much appreciated.
     
  18. sriley531

    sriley531 Excommunicado

    Don't panic! There are some nuances to the eddy's, they arent some magic poor mans al head. But they can be a pretty good head with some proper precautions. Mine are a little noisy, but nothing that really bugs me and they make good power. As far as the added costs, it sort of depends on your situation. I was going to be going with roller rockers either way, so I saved money via the sbc style versus the TA rollers. I was going with cast covers either way, so that was a wash. I was porting either way, again a wash. And I got my heads for a killer price, so having gessler check them and port them I still came out for way less money than had I went with TA's. Not a knock on ta by any means, I probably would've went that way if it didn't get such a good deal, just the way it worked out for me. Biggest problem I had with the heads themselves was all the s*** I took from alot of guys, almost caused me to leave and never look back. You wouldve thought i insulted their mothers! But alas, here I am... Haha
     
  19. sp40977

    sp40977 Well-Known Member

    All very good points. Hence got a good deal on mine, or would have left it iron for now..
     
  20. quickstage1

    quickstage1 Well-Known Member

    I was also planning on buying TA heads last year but ended up with a slightly used set of Gessler ported Edelbrocks from my brother for a great price so I went with them. So far, I have not been disappointed. Last fall after bolting them on I ran 10.96 at just under 125mph running on 28x12.5 ET Streets and 3.73 gears. It's also a heavy car and most of the time I drive it to the track. Mostly, my kids and I just cruise around in it. My TA valve covers cleared the rockers fine but my fabricated aluminums did not and my brothers Poston valve covers had to be clearanced a little.

    Ken
     

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