Dyno day part 2

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Briz, Jan 16, 2017.

  1. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    Can you post a picture of the flakes that are in a new quart of that oil?
     
  2. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Its sort of looked like this and there was swirly stuff mixed throughout. I dont have a picture of that actual oil but Im sure this stuff in the pan is remnants of the last oil that ran through the engine on the first session. This time I used 15/40 rotella
    NCM_0532[1].jpg
     
  3. Jim Rodgers

    Jim Rodgers Well-Known Member

    Dominator on it?

    HP falls off at 5800? Odd, it shoud pull hard to 6500 or more.

    Valve springs ok?
     
  4. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    yes, 1050 and yes good springs.I didnt plan on shifting any higher than 6000. Id still have liked to seen another 100 HP out of it.
     
  5. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    Man that doesn't look good. Which Gibbs oil has the flakes in it?
     
  6. Bluzilla

    Bluzilla a.k.a. "THE DOCTOR"

    NO Joe Gibbs oil is marketed with flakes of any kind in it. I spent 20 minutes on the phone with a tech at Joe Gibbs discussing their full oil line. At one point in the conversation I had mentioned a consumer reporting that a particular Joe Gibbs oil contained flakes of some sort. He confirmed that that their oil should be free of any particulates. It should have NO visual variants when it is new. Oil additives that are blended into their oil such as "Zinc" etc. are not visible at all. No flakes. He went on to say that they would be happy to analyze any fresh (Joe Gibbs) oil in question. Bottom line is,... if your New Oil has any unusual junk in it,..... Don't just pour it in any engine without clarification from the oil manufacturer.
    Goldschlager is a different story!
    Larry
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  7. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    The thing that would concern me is you have stuff in the oil AND the power level isn't where it should be and like Jim said it should have been making steam way past 5800, bearing issues and power loss go hand in hand unfortunately. Maybe it's moly based lube that hasn't broke down yet idk, but I would have to question it's lack of ability to pull up top.

    What was the "torque to turn" crank/cam on the shortblock? I guess there is a technical name for it but that's what I call it
     
  8. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Im inclined to agree with you. I wasnt there when they poured the oil in and primed the pump. I asked a few days ago if they had any of that batch of oil left.

    Dunno.

    I asked why it stopped making power when it did. They said I could put more fuel into it on the top end but with the carb Im using(its old) the lower ranges would suffer. I dont know about the Tq. required to turn over the short block.


    Really on the fence about running this thing. Im about out of funds and really dont want to dump anymore into this build. My spider senses tell me to take it down south to Scotty's place and have it checked out before I run it. That means I probably wont get to run it until the end of the summer.
     
  9. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Post a dyno sheet if you can.. if the dyno has complete instrumentation, then you can detect both fuel supply and valvetrain problems when an engine stops pulling before it should. Their discussion of "old dominator" does not make much sense to me.. is the fuel bowl full or not? And older two circuit carb should work just fine. Who cares what it runs like at 3000 rpm, when your converter is 5000?

    If your unsure about it, take it apart and look at it, it's not rocket science. (I know, easy for me to say)

    But damage will be obvious.

    Don't worry about 110 psi at high rpm..high oil pressure is a big part of what keeps iron block race motors alive.

    Don't know why your guys are pusseyfooting so much on the dyno.. 5 runs? that's just getting the dyno water warm... deal like yours, I would have had 10-15 pulls on it by noon. If it's gonna fail, let's get it to do it on the dyno, not after you put it in the car.

    When a motor is not hurt, and your testing on good equipment, you should be able to lay the dyno sheets down one on top of each other, and with no changes, they should be within a couple numbers... If they are all over the place, then either their equipment sucks, or there is something going on there.

    You had the right oil in it the last time, Rotella is good for your tow vehicle. I'm with Larry, I have been thru cases of BR30, never seen anything I would call a flake.

    One of the first signs of engine failure is premature discoloration of the oil.. with 5 pulls on it, the oil should look just like you poured it out of the bottle.. check it, if it does, then it might be fine, if it's turning dark, it's cause for concern, if it's black, start taking bolts out.

    JW
     
  10. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Thanks Jim, The oil is clean except for the non metallic sparkles. Any more dyno will have to be done somewhere else.Im not taking it back to this local shop and Im pretty sure he dont want it back. It hasnt made 10 pulls in the 2 sessions. Also had my doubts about the flakes in the oil from the start. Decided this morning while at church not to put it in the car until I have some degree of confidence in it. Right now I dont.
     
  11. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Im not one to go looking for trouble, but something is going on with it IMO, If Scotty can work you in I would have him take it in if he's willing, going behind another machinist/builder is generally something that isn't common, he will more than likely want to do a full tear down / measure , and that's money. Before it goes that far maybe step back take a break and reflect.

    I've yet to have a fresh engine without some "stuff" in the oil. I've beat my stuff relentlessly and everything has stayed together maybe it's nothing, engines are pretty tough, since it's easy to pull being a race car drop it in run it for a few hours and see what things look , send the oil off to see what's really in it maybe.
     
  12. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    I'll give them a call tomorrow. Maybe just a dyno test and tune. Let them tell me what they can from the numbers.
     
  13. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Are the flakes from the moly rings breaking in? Or is there a piston or 2 that is being scuffed from a rolled oil ring or 2 putting aluminum flakes in the oil?

    Like JW said, take it apart and see what's going on with it, if you're not familiar with doing that being a racer it would be a good time you learned how so you don't have to depend on anyone else if you have issues like this again. :TU:

    Like JW also said, "not rocket science". Get a ring compressor, a torque wrench, a few sets of micrometers(2"-3", 3" to 4" and 4"-5") a bore gauge, plastigauge and a bolt stretch gauge and you should be able to re-assemble your engine. These tools probably cost less than what you pay someone else to assemble your engine once. :Do No:

    You also have the board to help you along to get the job done if in you have never done this before.

    A couple weekends later you should be able to go back to a different dyno for retesting and be ready to race in 3 weeks if it passes the dyno testing. An engine run stand would help you out as well to check for leaks before starting on the dyno but not really necessary.

    I wish you the best of luck and hope you resolve the issues soon.


    Derek
     
  14. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Thanks for the input Derek. I have all of those tools and am well versed in how to tear down / reassemble an engine. Just did a 460 last weekend. Runs like a champ. However being as this one will see sever duty I like to put my trust in someone that does this for a living and has proven race cars on the track. If it was a street motor I'd be all over it in a second with little concern. Parts for this build are 10x"s the cost of stock parts. Had to wait nearly 6 months and pay Crower close to 600.00 for 2 rods after the last failure. I Fix A/C's its what I do and I do it well. I'll leave the high end engine stuff to the professionals.
     
  15. Jim Rodgers

    Jim Rodgers Well-Known Member

    Non metallic flakes could be from assembly lube. If they are truely non metallic I wouldnt sweat it.

    Open the filter and have a look. If its clean as in no metal then run it. In my own engines I usually dont sweat very small amounts of non magnetic material. You can clean and clean and clean during machining and assembly and sometimes stuff still ends up in the filter.
     
  16. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Just because the parts cost more doesn't mean that you would measure or install them differently than the builds you already have done. The machine work is the most critical part of the build, assembly is basically the same with a high end race engine or a stock rebuild. With the only difference being that one would need to pay attention more closely to the details on the performance build measuring clearances and using a stretch gauge instead of just a torque wrench for the rod bolts and stuff like that.

    Seeing severe duty vs. just street duty is why the parts cost more for the S/D parts, not because they're harder to install properly. :Do No:

    But that's cool, if you're not comfortable with doing that work yourself that's ok too. I hope they get this figured out quickly so you can go racing soon. GL


    Derek
     
  17. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    Fellow HVAC/R man chiming in. Its been murder this past week on dam rooftops. 118,115,113,105 106, degrees in the shade under my canopy, drinking gallons of water and not taking a piss, but its doable as long as im in the shade. I may be being cooked radiantly though. Could the flakes be from your Valve spring washers? With the power droping at 5800 rpm valve train would be something to take a closer look at. If its from the oil then i would wonder why the guy was still pouring it into my engine. Ever add oil with your eyes closed?
     
  18. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Hey Anson, Only using Rotella now. I've changed it after every race. the silver flake is slowly going away. Its not magnetic so Im not really worrying about it. There is a small amount of black nearly powder like stuff that sticks to the magnet that I've been told could be coming from the cylinder walls and rings. The power drop off is most likely in the heads. If it lives through the summer I'll pull the heads and send them off to get a CNC port job done.
     
  19. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Non metallic.... Aluminum? bearing material?
     
  20. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Its silver, I can get a piece on my finger but it has no feeling like grit and it dont stick to a magnet. OP is great so I doubt its bearing material. Ive shot several go pro vids of the gages during a run to analyze later. all seems well with the engine. Several guys here have seen and heard it run. all say its healthy.
     

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