I don't consider $1,500. for a bare pr. of TA Rover heads, "expensive", especially when you consider their low volume,(factures into production cost). These are genuine race heads, made to make and sustain a lot of hp, reliably. Enlighten me, what is the romance with a 350 block vs say a 300, with a stroker crank ? It has .05" larger bore and weaker cylinder walls, by virtue of the taller deck. I wouldn't be suprised if the 300 would bore match the 350 and still have comparable wall thickness ? So you "loose" 10 cu in., but you can build a serious contender-now. "OZ" has single plane manifolds, to fit the TA heads-now. Roller cams are available-now. What then ? roverman.ou:
Very true. Maybe we don't have the resources to build a high power 350 (by this I mean through bolt on and off the shelf parts) but we do have the means to build 300s like roverman said. Even if it is not the engine of choice for many of us, some R&D in this department can really bring the spotlight to SBB motors
Makes sense, thats why most SBF guys would rather have a 347-stroker than a tall-deck 351:Smarty: Are you sure about the $1500 price for the T/A heads though? Last I heard they were talking $2200-$2500 price range, but its been a while since I looked into ito No:
He bought a set of those heads so I would think he'd know what he paid for them. How many people on here can say that? The 300 stroker really is a viable build. Difference in stroke between 300 and 350 is .450" right? And if you wanted I suppose you could even offset grind it for even more stroke with custom rods. But you can use the stock 300 rods without the rod/stroke ratio getting out of hand and the low stock pin position gives plenty of room in the piston to move the pin up, so the biggest expense in the 300 stroker is the pistons and a couple of good off the shelf candidates have been used. No doubt there are others. I also think aftermarket rods close to the 300 length are fairly common. If I was building another SBB that is definitely the way I'd go, as there are all kinds of intakes available plus the TA heads. Incidentally, I got some more information about the long rod/short rod thing. Apparently the big reason F1 uses such a long rod ratio is because they use a flat plane crankshaft. Since all cylinders are 180* apart on the crank it apparently aggravates the vibration from the side movement of the rods, whereas the 90* crank has an inherent tendency to dampen that out. And that explains why we can get by with shorter rods. We still have secondary vibration, just not as much of it. But if you found a good 300 block with minimal core shift, a 350 crank, some good aftermarket rods or NASCAR take-outs and a nice set of forged pistons, then slapped a set of TA heads on it with a Harcourt, Huffaker, or Wildcat single plane and a big 4bbl you could make quite a nice engine out of that. A good roller cam and a decent set of headers and I don't know how much more you could want. All of that stuff is available right now and it is SBB stuff so I don't know why anyone would want to keep on complaining. I know it isn't a 350, but it has better heads. Isn't that what all the fuss about a 350 was supposed to be over in the first place? Jim
Just adding to what Jim said. Eagle has 6.00", 6.125", 6.200", 6.300" "H" beam SBC rods with a mix of 2.00" and 1.899" journal sizes. You can find sets for under $500. The 305 SBC forged pistons come in a range of pin heights that will match with the above Eagle rods to get you close to zero deck with a 300 block and 350 crank. Paul
---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ---------- I'm nervous about grinding "the cast iron lump", rod journals down to 1.85/1.88", for Nascar rods. Has anyone done this on a 340/350 stock crank ? How many passes ? I do like mains that are smaller than 3.0". 2.5" mains "might" last with good power ? The 300 block "might" bore to 2.75" mains,(Ford). I have round lobe billet cam cores, to fit the 300/340 blocks. I think you will find the base circle of a 350 cam is similar to 215-340 base circles. Either way, the 8620 billet is adequatley strong and will grind to .400" lobe lift. I have listened to all the negative wa-wa about the poor/unfortunate 350:boring:,for how many years, on this forum? It's time to move on. The rest of the world has been hauling a$$, with the RV8, for decades ! You need to consider, in the here and now, your next move. Onward, roverman.:Brow:
So if I look at everything that has been suggested so far, a high performance SBB can be put together with parts that are available NOW. Does anyone see anything wrong with the following combination for a 400 to 500 hp build? Start with ported TA rover heads. They were cast so the intake ports could be raised. 300 cfm should be possible without much trouble. There isn't much room to raise the exhaust ports but you should be able to get 200 cfm. Someone do the math but that kind of flow should support 550 hp with medium effort. The next batch of bare heads are being machined now and should be ready in 6 to 8 weeks. You can spend anywhere from $2800 to $4000+ on a complete set of heads depending on the level of CNC port work and associated parts. It looks like there is no problem boring the 300 block out to 3.80". It should be easy to have a custom piston made that matches the TA Rover head. If you use the longer Eagle SBC rods the pistons can be made shorter and lighter. Use the 340/350 crank If you don't want to turn the Buick rod journal down from 2.00" then use Eagle 6.125" rod, 2.00" journal for a 349 cu in engine. If you are willing to offset grind then you can use the Eagle 6.125", 6.200", 6.250" or 6.300" rod with 1.899" rod journals for a 358 cu in engine. Then top it off with your choice of manifold as suggest by Jim Blackwood http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/IntakeManifolds.htm. I'm sure everyone has looked at this article at some time. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_1103_how_to_hot_rod_any_engine/viewall.html Paul
So what'd we leave out? Well, roller rockers but TA has that covered. Sanderson makes headers. Studs and such, TA again. Head gaskets, several ways to go on that one, I can give you my vendor if you want copper or maybe some MLS can be had from the usual suspects like Cometec. Sean has my template for a halo girdle if you feel the need. I think everything else is pretty standard stuff. Should be able to build a real kick-ass motor this way. Jim
>> Cometic has 10 and 14 bolt MLS with 94 and 96 mm bores. Lot's of good sbf header designs, for cheap. Cut-off the sbf flanges, spread 1,2 primaries fron 3,4, buy about 1", weld on your TA flanges and you have race worthy headers. You can also "mod" a sbc gear or belt drive, for the cam, and aftermarket sbc roller lifters, are a drop-in. "Wildcat Engineering", in Wales, sells forged cranks. GB has stronger than oem., stroker cranks, in many different strokes. "Next excuse please".... Let's Go ! roverman.
Boring a relatively "thin wall" block, to get more inches, is not the best way to build more power. The thicker you can leave the bores, the better the rings seal. The long stroke already side-loads the bores, more than we would like. Short body, fwd V6, GM hydraulic lifter will drop-in and work with stock dogbones. You will need to fab a "spider" and attachments, to retain the dogbones. Roller cam is needed to get adequate "ramp speed" , on the lobes. This makes more torque/hp., with same lift and duration as a FT. Onward, roverman.:3gears:
Dos anyone still make the adapters to run a 215 intake on a '64 300, or is it custom fab only? Ive always liked the factory Rover cross-ram-side-draft intakes myself I have a '63 215, 2- '64 300s, and 3- SBB 350s, so Im interrested in all SBB info. If was going to build a high revving SBB it would be 300 based. ---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ---------- Testing... There it is! I posted hours ago, and the thread showed me as the last poster, but wouldnt show the posto No:
The problem is, "most" 215 based manifolds, are too small in the port cross section. Huffaker and maybe Harcourt, perhaps a few others have 64", 300 Buick sized runners. The Offy 360/single plane, can be easily ported to 300 size. It has very short runners, with a very large divided plenum. Being for a 215, it will require spacer plates. It also takes a Dyer blower top, to fit a 6V-71, that weld fits perfect. If your going to port TA heads, you'll need to "Hydraport"/ etc. the intake manifold, to volume match the head. Onward, roverman.
I have been looking hard at the 300 stroker option. Maybe this will help. The 340 or 350 crankshaft can be used. This will change the stroke from the standard 300 stroke of 3.40" to the 3.85" stroke shared by the 340 or 350. The main bearing journals of the crank will have to be turned down from the 3.00" diameter to the 2.5" diameter to fit the 300 block. They all share the 2.00" rod journal. The standard 300 rods at 5.95" can be used as in the Hot Rod build or the option I have looked into is using a small block Chevy small journal rod that shares the same 2.00" bearing size. These are readily avliable in a 6.00" length from Scat, Eagle and others. The rods can be narrowed slightly. This would resolve the weak cast rod issue. This leaves finding a desirable piston with the correct compression height and pin size. The Chevy rods normal pin size is .927". I have talked with Scat and Eagle and both companies provide their rods bushed. Removing the bushing the opening is .972 and .976 prospectively. Talking with both companies neither had an issue with removing the bushing and honing the hole a few thousands for press pin designs. Neither thought this would compromise the strength. This opens up all kinds of possibilities for pistons including the 305 Chevy and the Hypertectic Olds 307 piston used in the Hot Rod build. This piston has a .980 pins size, 1.596 compression height, is Dirt cheap and readily avliable $138. a set from Summit. Boring the block .040" or to 3.80 will make use of this piston in a standard size or oversized can be used if you bore larger. I know of several members that have bored to 3.85" or .050" over so they could use buick 350 or 3.8 V6 pistons. Using the six inch rods will offer several advantages. This adds additional clearance to the crank so piston skirt modifications can be minimized or eliminated. When the standard 300 rod was used the piston skirt was clearanced .030" and the area below the pin by .080". The aftermarket has both I beam and H beam designs that can be ordered pre clearanced for stroker designs and use cap screw type bolts. Both offer greater cam clearance. T/A is now listing hydra. roller cam cores and hydra. roller lifters in their catalog. These are the link bar design. I like the idea of using a non link bar design but have not seen a good method of retaining the lifters. The other option is to stick with the link bar design but look for lower cost option. The SBC uses lifters of the same diameter. I have been trying to determine how the lifter bore spacing compares. I have been told the T/A heads can use stud mounted rockers which makes the Chevy roller rockers a low cost option. The head availability continues to be an issue. Every time I have called I am told from 4-8 weeks to have the castings machined. The problem is 4-8 never gets here. Does anyone here have a set? If so what do they flow in stock form? What size valves? How much port work is required to get decent flow? I get conflicting stories about what valve size they come with and have heard up to 1.94 intake and 1.50 exhaust due to a center line shift. It seems to me if these heads are based off the 3.8 heads there should be companies that already have proven port designs and the programs developed to do CNC port work. I am surprised T/A doesn't offer this as an option. The 215 intakes can be adapted to a 300 by using 1/2" spacers between the intake and head. I believe the gap is 1/4" between the base of the intake to the block. Still looking for other intake options that don't break the bank. The last thing to consider is I noticed the wedge shop recently built a stroked Rover (4.9) that made 391HP and 356 torque. If this can be done with 297 cubic inches and ported Rover heads what's possible with 349 cubes and T/A heads? I read frequently but don't post often due to all of the drama caused by the few. This is what causes us to lose good info. and members that have lots to contribute. This is what drove away Dave Nelson , Carl and others.
Mark Great Research! I called about the TA rover heads earlier this week and was told the machining will be done in 6 to 8 weeks also. I guess we'll call again in a couple of weeks and see if the time line is still the same. Here is a paragraph from the online catalog. The major area of improvement in the performance of these heads is the larger intake ports. Being that it is based off of our V6 heads, the intake ports are essentially the same. With porting, preliminary tests yielded 270+ cfm on the intake and 180 cfm on the exhaust ports. In addition, the valve angle has been adjusted to 13 to put the valves on the center line of the bore which allows for the use of larger valves, up to 2.02” intake and 1.60” exhaust. The exhaust ports have also been raised to help improve performance. The Rover heads also feature a 1.850”-1.900” valve spring install height which allows for the use of higher lift cams. Paul
Wouldn't want to speak for Art, but based on his experience and what you fellas have just said it sounds an awful lot to me like TA schedules the machine work after you place the order. In other words, it is always going to be 6-8 weeks because they will never start on them until you place the order. I know he had his on order for a good while before they finally shipped, but I also don't think the original quote was anything close to 6-8 weeks. Of course I could be wrong... Jim
I for one don't want to cause any drama,I just noticed a few mistakes in your info,you wrote; "I know of several members that have bored to 3.85" or .050" over so they could use buick 350 or 3.8 V6 pistons. Using the six inch rods will offer several advantages. This adds additional clearance to the crank so piston skirt modifications can be minimized or eliminate." 3.85" should be 3.8,which would be .050" over for a 300 block.(probably a typo on your part) "The standard 300 rods at 5.95" " This is another mistake,300 rods are,5.965",close but no cigar.(not a big deal) And if you haven't done a stroker 300 yet,if you can wait a couple of months when I start mine,I will post all of the details,one of which is that I found a main bearing set(the thrust bearing is within .003" of the 300/350 crank's thrust) that will allow a 2.75" main journal size for more rod to main journal overlap. Of coarse the block will have to be align-bored .250" larger(.125" per side)but will be substantially stronger than the HR build's crank.(I will need that as I will be offset grinding the rod journals):Brow: (this little guy always cracks me up,LOL) And hey,thanks for all the info you took time to post, and don't be afraid of a little drama,most of the "drama" people were banned a while ago anyway.(the ones that are left are harmless)LOL:TU: And a question about what you posted,is TA offering roller blanks for 215/300/340 camshaft configurations? I know they were offering roller cores for 350s,and 455s,but not the others,are you saying they are now offering 215/300/340 cam cores?:shock: You are welcome to post any time you want,I usually only read the engine sections,and a lot of times I will run out of stuff to read.:beer
I gotta tell ya, This is good info. The 300 stroker with TA heads would run really good. Wish we knew more about the TA heads. So am I reading this right,Ta is now selling these heads? This could really open things up. The drama kinda sucks but at least you guys are talking about these engines. Instead of another nailhead I am looking at this 300 stroker for a new build in the future.:gp:
Yeah, I wish Art would get back on here and clear this up. I'm pretty sure he's had his TA heads for about 6 months now. He made a bunch of posts on here right after he got them. But likely as not he's been busy with his Hemi-Jensen-Healey project and I don't think he's had time to do any porting or testing. TA has sold a bunch of sets of those heads but I swear I have no idea who has bought them. Kiwis? European market? Guys building sleepers in secret? Closed course racers? Other than Art it hasn't been anyone on here. And for the life of me I don't understand why. If it wasn't for the blower I'd have a set by now. I'm saving that upgrade for when I get jaded and tired of the measly power of the blown 340/(350ci). Jim
How I bought TA heads, A. a waiting list. B. you plunk a 50% deposit(genuine buyer vs neophyte).C. you call periodically,(so they know you "want" them). Evidently, I didn't call often enough, and was about to be "bumped-down the list". Fortunately, I wanted the heads bare, saved TA time, and got me the heads sooner,$1,500.FACT. Dan Jones, a very savy guy, just posted a lot of good info, at "BritishV8.com",(see 4.9L rover in drivetrain section). Repotedly, TA claims 225 int./140exh. cfm. flow. with the stock TA rover head. likely at .6" lift, 1.94/1.6" valves. Dutweiller has made 250/190 cfm, 1.94"/1.6", with striagt forward porting,(TA V6 head, 10 deg valve inclination is likely). The TA rover is 13 deg. inclination. The bare head is 26lbs. Don't buy it to save weight. According to Mike/TA, it will go 6 bolt/bore, and stay dry. I think Mike told me 270 cfm, with bowl and short turn work,(1.94" int.). Personally, I question the use 40 yr. old cast iron cranks, with 3.85"+ strokes . Holding close to 600 hp, reliably, is not likely. Why not less stroke, and more usable rpm. band ? Remember, GB have various strokes with stronger cranks available. Reportedly, a fair share of TA headed Rovers, with stock cranks, have grenaded on road courses. Consider your options carefully. Good Luck, roverman.:3gears:
From the T/A catalog: TA Performance has just released their new Hydraulic Roller Camshafts for the Rover-215-300-340, 350, 400-430-455 and 364-401-425 Nailhead engines. Induction Hardened 1050 Steel Billet material handles higher spring pressures for fast ramping profiles. Cams are hardened to 58 - 60 Rockwell. Lobe profile parameters are .300" -.400" Lobe Lift and 110'-114' Lobe Separation, 108'-116' depending on amount of lobe lift. All steel hydraulic roller cams (except 350) require the use of a Hardened Steel Distributor gear, please see page 129. TA ROL-215 TA ROL-350 TA ROL-401 TA ROL-455-2 TA ROL-455-3 TA ROL-500-1 Z-GRIND * 364 needs block modification to get roller lifters in Rover-215-300-340 Roller Camshaft Core ................................. $295.00
