Cost of a full restoration

Discussion in 'Classic Buicks' started by 1970BlackBird, Jan 3, 2021.

  1. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Some truisms regarding a car restoration;
    1) Whatever you put in to it, you will never get back, and that can be both money and labour. So give up the idea of putting a car right as an investment. It is not, nor will it ever be. There has not been one restoration completed that has not exceeded the value of the car, ever.
    2) Once you get a budget down, double it, and once you get a time estimate, triple it. An estimate is just that, an estimate. Once it's opened up, there will be more wrong than you bargained for. The car will never be done on time or on budget, it's just not possible. As the due date approaches, both time and costs will increase exponentially.
    3) If a body man tells you "I'm not going to make any money on this one", that's a signal that he doesn't like your car and you will not get a job to the quality you expect. Walk away and find someone who does like your car.
    4) Never go into a restoration with a friend, unless you don't like being friends with that person. Never get a friend to do a restoration for you. Insist on paperwork, always!
    5) It will never be better than it was new. It's just statistically and mechanically not possible. There will always be something not quite right.
    6) 90% of "car restoration projects" usually end up in wrecker's yards, boxes, back fields, abandoned or for sale. They always have "potential" to be something great, remember in it's current state it is not.
    7) No one else on this planet cares what you believe about the car and the project. Nobody cares if dear old Uncle Elmer drove it new from the showroom, they never knew him and likely never will. They will make up their minds and the more you try and convince them, the more they will think you an idiot. They will have no problem taking your money though.

    Therefore;
    1) You have to love that car with all of your heart and being. It will rule your life once you start. KNOW YOUR LIMITS BEFORE STARTING ANYTHING!!!
    2) Ensure your Significant Other is on board, lest you find yourself overboard and underwater.
    3) Be on good terms with your bank. Finances are always a problem, and extra costs will always occur when you can least afford it.
    4) Be on good terms with your body man; you will grow to hate him.
    5) Be prepared to not drive your car for a number of years. 3-day restorations are the purview of bad TV, not real life. You can't even get a starter for something like a Nailhead in less than a week.
    6) You must have the patience of a saint, and in most cases, it's best that you be one. With all of you guys packing heat in the US, I'm surprised that more body men aren't shot.
    7) Sentimentality wears thin when the numbers add up; a car restoration is a labour of love and one of financial lunacy. Reread #1.

    AND LASTLY, It's supposed to be fun, so get in there and enjoy it!
     
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  2. WQ59B

    WQ59B Well-Known Member

    If married, and if possible, I recommend separating the finances of the 'house' and the 'car'. That way that component is removed from any point of conflict.
    95% of my current 3 vehicles /parts / work was paid for with 'side money'.

    It's not necessarily easy for everyone to do, of course.
     
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  3. NZ GS 400

    NZ GS 400 Gold Level Contributor

    From my experience, the DIY paint job can be pretty darn good. Sure, errors need re doing etc but practice makes perfect. I am happy with what I have done. I just wish I had access to a booth. Most of the junk I had to fix would have been a non issue then.
    I found that getting the gun technique down is key in addition to quality of prep, etc.
     
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  4. 69GS430/TKX

    69GS430/TKX Silver Level contributor

    Excellent words, Ed. I have a garage with a pit, where I do a lot of the wrenching, and a detached shed where I plan to make one section a booth that I can keep clean enough to do the spraying. And I don't mind using my GS as a Painting 101 practicing guinea pig, as long as any mistakes aren't permanent. After 42 years together, we have given each other a lot of abuse and have the scars, so I am not afraid of hurting it a little more on the way to making it a better car. When I was grinding on it with an industrial angle grinder in 1981, the grinder slipped and sliced through my pants and into my knee. The scar is still there!
     
  5. pbr400

    pbr400 68GS400

    I get the sentimental aspect of restoring it and using it daily, but think about this. You’re using feelings to justify 20 to 50 thousand of expenses that will give you a nearly perfect 50+ year old car (that will have many of its scars, scabs and ‘wrinkles’ removed-maybe too perfectly). Will it feel the same, and will you be willing to daily drive it? With new paint, a minor mishap will result in thousands that insurance (yours nor the other guy’s) won’t pay. (Hagerty and the like will write an agreed value policy IF it’s not a daily. No one will for a daily). Restored or lovingly maintained, you’re risking a painful loss if you use it every day. Think about an alternative idea: buy a $3-6k sacrificial appliance like a Grand Marquis or Roadmaster. Spend the balance of your resto budget on a garage. Get Rosy out of the elements and sloooow down the deterioration, and fix little things (and maybe bigger stuff like body and paint) as time allows. Enjoy gathering parts and learning tricks instead of hearing a shop call and say ‘I need a notgonnafindit by Friday or I’m starting a Mustang’ every other week. Drive it anytime you want but not when you have to. Treat it like it’s your grandfather’s pocketknife; enjoy it for what it is but don’t use it every day.
    Trust me, I’m a (somewhat) reformed old car daily driver.
    Patrick
     
  6. 1970BlackBird

    1970BlackBird 1970 Buick Skylark Sedan, "Rosaline"

    I appreciate that, and yes I realize it is costly. You all have been very kind and understanding, I deeply appreciate the advice. I am still deciding on the direction to go with her, but after the restoration, I DO want her to be the same daily she always has been. The care and maintenance has been extreme, but after two wrecks and fifty years, she is still doing quite well. I would hop in and go across the US without worry. I just would like to give her a new sheen, but still keep her as a daily. I have only liability, as I know the cost of the damage done and the feared "shes totaled". I have heard that once from my uncle, who did body work, that didn't stop me. Luckily dad left me a little, and that's what I used it for. The damage was severe enough(had to cut the frame and restraighten, but she survived. My point is, I am willing and understanding of the ramifications of a daily classic, and whatever it is, we can get through it. I cannot thank you enough for your wise words, and continued support in this matter. Am I too sentimental? probably. Crazy? A little. All I know is that that vehicle will be with me, even in my old age(and beyond).
     
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  7. 69GS430/TKX

    69GS430/TKX Silver Level contributor

    I still say you can make Rosaline look significantly better for less than $20,000, and then drive her regularly without being any more afraid of dents and dings than you would be if you'd used the $20,000 to buy a nice used 2012 Mustang or Camaro as a daily driver. As for insurance, I don't know why an insurance company would refuse to sell you a comprehensive policy with coverage (such as cost to repair collision damage) and deductibles similar to a late-model Mustang or Camaro of similar worth.
     
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  8. OHC JOE

    OHC JOE Mullet Mafia since 2020

    Next time I'm out in the garage working on one of my cars and my wife says are you spending money on that s*** again I'll tell her NO I'm saving us money here check out this thread on v8buick.com
     
  9. 1970BlackBird

    1970BlackBird 1970 Buick Skylark Sedan, "Rosaline"

    Hey, there's nothing like cruising around, radio blaring oldies. You get lost in it ya know? Have some nice cold drinks in the cooler, rolling around. You just can't beat it. The money isn't what's important, just you and some wheels. That's how I feel
     
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  10. Prairie Piston

    Prairie Piston Well-Known Member

    I think you need to decide what the word restoration means to you and that will determine your price point. If you are looking at a points car it will be significantly more than a freshened up paint job. Then there is everything else in between.

    I was a knucklehead when I was young and stripped my Riv down with my wife’s blessing. We then had three kids in three years and the car sat while I raised my family. Now it’s going back together. I’ve redone pretty much everything mechanically except the a/c and am now looking at paint. Again there is paint and then there is paint. What level you want determines price. Mine won’t be a daily but will be a driver that I won’t hesitate to put my foot into. I don’t want to stress about rock chips or scratches every time I take it out but it needs to be presentable. I am budgeting around 10k for body and paint (metal work is done). This does not include any reassembly just panel alignment. Should find out in a few days how out to lunch I am... anyways the car is refurbished but not what I would call a restoration...
     
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  11. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    There's a lesson here somewhere: many Manufactures offer their "clients" a factory restoration service. Benefits are many but mostly that the finished car is correct and as new or better. Cost? You have to ask? Sorry, a factory perfect E-type Jaguar is $400,000. Read that slowly... So yes, you can restore a car to perfect new condition - but at what cost? Interesting reads:
    https://www.jaguar.com/about-jaguar/jaguar-classic/authentic-cars/e-type-reborn.html
    https://www.hagerty.com/media/archived/factory-restoration-programs-fiat-mercedes-jaguar-and-more/
     
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  12. 69GS430/TKX

    69GS430/TKX Silver Level contributor

    That is crazy. But they wouldn't offer it if there was no one willing to fork out the money for one.
     
  13. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    Yup, it still amazes me though!
     
  14. NZ GS 400

    NZ GS 400 Gold Level Contributor

    I think a good start would be to order new interior (seat covers, foam, carpet, headliner,etc), watch some videos and decide if you want to do it yourself. That would really freshen things up on the inside and if done yourself, only about 2500 bucks or so.
    Legendary Auto Interiors is the best source.
     
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  15. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Ahead of time I'd like to apologize for the rant, and this is directed to anyone who is thinking about doing an old car restoration for the first time and has never done one. No doubt you've watched a few shows, seen a few tutorials, seen what some of the guys have cracked off here on this board and figured, "I can do that!". Maybe you can, maybe you can't. It's best you sit down and have an honest discussion with yourself and realize exactly what your limits and limitations are.

    If you're doing this for fun, realize that this is one hobby that can ruin your life if you do not know when to call it quits. Know the limits of what you are capable of, and what you can afford. Baby steps are good, especially in the beginning.

    I loved the garage camaraderie, the sense of accomplishment that comes from a job well done, and to be able to drive something unique and essentially from my childhood era. But that only goes so far. It's amazing how fast people dump you when things get a bit tough, like when you need help. I always had lots of guys around to drink my beer, but very few stayed to help yard out an engine block in a wrecker or dragging a parts car out of the bush. Most normal people tend to think that you're out of your flipping gourd to go after old junk. There's a lot of hard slogging you end up doing alone.

    Over the many years of doing cars and scrapping some of them, I've found where my limits are. It's very easy to get in over your head, especially with a 50 year old car. You'll notice that no one here has actually quoted so much as a ball-park figure of what a resto will cost, and that's because it largely depends on what you're ultimately willing to spend. If you've never done a car, the best advice that I got and never listened to was to start out helping a buddy do his car, make your mistakes on someone else's dime, and that way get a feel for the process and the pitfalls. Join a car club, get to know people who do resto work, and get in there and help out. Experience is worth 10,000 YouTube videos. The one thing I found it was deceptively easy to take a car apart and figure out what went wrong, but in some cases, almost impossible to put it back together and put it right. I found that out on Mercedes Benz cars, where there is a very solid parts support, but with Buicks, I saw a lot more limitations (missing parts, primarily) that have scared me off many potentially good projects because I could see where I was going to run up against a brick wall. And there are an awful lot more Buicks out there than 50s vintage Mercedes Benz's.

    Another Truism: There's no such thing as an "easy restoration". Even a well kept or cocooned "barn find" original will have issues, some of them very ugly to deal with. It's called built-in obsolescence and bad design.

    That leads to other thing; 50 year old cars weren't actually that good. Compared to a modern vehicle where you can expect 200-300,000 miles, they were pretty much crap, drive ability notwithstanding. Don't ever fool yourself to believe that even once after you redo the drive-line with more modern materials that the car will be as reliable as the neighbour's ugly new Toyota. Not a chance, not ever. My latest Buick is mechanically new from the rad cap down and every year I still wind up under the hood diagnosing some weird "never seen that before" type problem. Oh sure, we've all heard about Uncle So-and-so who drove one off the showroom floor and drove it through thick and thin and only did oil changes for 200,000 miles, but having owned at least 45 mid-sixties vintage cars over the past 30 years, I will call BS. They are crap. They're easier to fix, and for years parts were cheap. That's not the case anymore. They're still easy to fix, but parts are becoming scarce, and trim is almost non-existent.

    The other thing I've found about parts, and maybe the others can chime in with their experiences, but I've found that replacement parts are never as good as the original stuff was. Sure, because of the internet, selection has never been better. Remans or repops are especially bad and won't even last a tenth as long as the originals did. It seems it's getting worse and not better; the more crap they crank out in exotic locations the worse the quality control seems to get. It looks the same but isn't. That can make choosing the correct car to redo all that much more interesting.

    I won't even get into the topic of "what the hell did you buy that thing for?" Let's just leave it at the fact that very few people will understand why you chose a Buick when you could have built a Mustang, Camaro or a Duster.

    And lastly, in that vein, the car you choose to do is very important. Your selection of what is available has really never been better. Just looking on the board here and there's always something new in "leads" or someone's photographed some "project" somewhere. I eventually gravitated to buying something I could do and live with, a driver with a solid body and so-so mechanicals which I've since rebuilt. That's just my thing, I realize that's not for everyone. so it comes back to that over-arching question; "What can you afford?"

    Take it from there, for what it's worth.
     
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  16. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    If you are lucky there are adult vo-tech classes near you, maybe at a high school. There is usually a body shop and paint class you can take and paint your car with professional (the teacher) help. Just a thought.
     
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  17. gs66

    gs66 Silver Level contributor

    This local 67 GS 340 was painted at the Tech College and turned out very nice. 488B6D7D-5911-4C8D-B0F8-446BF511AF60.jpeg
     
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  18. OZGS455

    OZGS455 Oh what a wonderful day!

    Yeah, so much great advice on here, that I myself relate to intimately, being almost near the end stages of the 68 Valiant I started on 2 months ago.
    Whilst looking for parts for the 61 Dodge Lancer I stumbled on the '68 Val that someone else had started then messed up their back in an industrial accident!
    "Easy Restoration" the ad said:)
    Price was right, lined up a tow truck to haul it to me from 3 hours south.
    First get it running, change oil and flush coolant then get brakes working , $500 for W/cyls + linings+ hoses+ line over the rear end,
    Now it has brakes and can move it around without fear of running into the GS or the Dodge or one of my bikes.
    "Easy Restoration" went out the window on bodywork which I do all myself after a lifetime of it.
    More rust that I thought, SURPRISE!...not really;)
    Gonna leave patina but after all rust was welded up and minor dings repaired it was silly not to repaint the lot, didn't bare metal as most of paint original and sound, a coat of etch then a few of hi-fill and the first block back with 120 dry revealed all the stuff I'd missed, eventually reprimed and blocked back 400 wet and sprayed single stage acrylic in Xmas and Boxing Day.
    Found a good reasonable priced upholterer(very lucky there)
    He did the 61 Dodge for a great price and quote on the Val is fantastic too, In this game ya gotta do it yourself or know the right people.
    Ian just removed the headlining and will be back in 4 or 5 hours to refit the new one he's making up.
    So the cars coming together at a reasonable price only because I do all my own work except upholstery and electrical.
    I have a good old school auto sparky who I trust not to rip me off, I'll get him over once I fit the new carpet so at least he can lay under the dash in comfort.
    Car starts and horn now works.
    Nothing else does I'm not foolish enough to waste my time on electrics when I could be doing something I'm good at.
    Hopefully when sell it Ill get what it's worth, it's not cost a great deal in parts and materials but as far as labour goes I woulda been better fixing someone else's car.
    In a way it's a labour of love and the satisfaction of turning a sows ear into a silk purse!
    Woulda made more sense if I was keeping it but I can't keep them all there's not enough garage space.
    Cleaned up under the hood and painted 225 Slant in some green I mixed up, it's based on a blue paving paint with a bit of yellow added to make Slant Green.
    "Easy Restoration" not really.
    It's a freshen up that's cost me minimal money and a couple months of my life.
    Turning out ok so far.
    But not a job for the feint hearted.
    It's funny reading over all the comments in this thread and shaking my head thinking yeah yeah yeah they're right!
    Yet I still do it ...Crazy? ..it helps o_O
    :D IMG20201112161502.jpg IMG20201112161520.jpg IMG20201215170445.jpg export1609205232085.jpg IMG20210108171441.jpg
     
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  19. OZGS455

    OZGS455 Oh what a wonderful day!

    Yeah mate!...its RHD allright, cos we are DownUnder...in Australia, or OZ for short!....My Buick and Dodge are both LHD though.
    Its own thread ya reckon?....but its not a Buick , it's an Aussie Mopar.

    As to engine paint the guy I buy my paint supplies off gave me a tip!...PAVING PAINT...Its clear and tintable and cheap at $30 a litre
    I gave Owen a Chrysler Blue Rocker cover to match the colour, he tinted it perfect and so far Ive painted two Aussie Hemi 6's with it.
    Added yellow to make camo green then red to make camo brown and sprayed the V8 in my Army LandRover in camo.
    Still had 1/4 a tin left the other day when I decided to paint the Slant 6.
    poured a bit of the blue into a jar and slowly added a little Solar Yellow tinter, a bit at a time and stirring, till it matched!
    Greens are easy to make.
    The paving paint thins with GP thinners or turps, I used a HVLP gravity gun on low pressure, masked off the engine bay and she turned out fantastic.
    started and ran up to temp to bake it on.
    Spraycans of engine enamel are expensive , cover lousy, ya need 2 cans to do an engine .....Paving paint is the go!
    So tough ya could walk on it:D
     
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  20. OZGS455

    OZGS455 Oh what a wonderful day!

    ok..its late, Im tired, and lazy...might just cut n paste it over to there heyo_O
     

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