Buick 455 idle questions

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by Electra Sweden, Oct 6, 2022.

  1. Electra Sweden

    Electra Sweden Well-Known Member

    Did not think about this! Many testify that ignition coils can become weaker when hot. I really wonder why... Some people speculate that the coil could initially have a few loops shortened and is weaker to start with. Then as resistance increases with heat whatever operational margin there was is gone and the engine stalls. Other speculate it might be movement in the material due to heat expansion causing loose connections.

    On a hand-wavy assessment not hot at all and certainly colder than during the summer when it was working. But should definitely measure temperature next time around.

    Btw, I found this very interesting on the subject:

    A friend of mine told me that on Cadillacs they often move the ignition coil away from the engine to some place cooler in the engine bay. Maybe that would be a nice mod to consider.

    Today I attempted troubleshooting again but I had some serious problems with my new starter. Since the beginning it made a clattering noise on some start attempts. Further start attempts would engage it successfully. Then today it suddenly started to make a violent grinding noise. Sounded really bad, only let it do it for max 2 seconds. Tried with another battery, same story. So decided to take the starter off. I guess the grinding came from the starter gear spinning against the edge of the ring gear. The ring gear had some minor spurs approximately at the location where the starter was. No more than a few strokes with a file was needed to fix that fortunately.

    What could have caused this? The solenoid connection was nice and tight. The fact that the motor probably engaged without the gear being fully engaged yet sounds it could be some manufacturing error on the starter? In my world a starter motor should not engage until the starter gear fully intersects the ring gear, to prevent precisely this grinding.This was a Wilson factory rebuild Delco starter.

    The starter sits rather freely on the block, it is just a machined surface and the holes where the bolts go basically, no guide pins or anything. But that looks how it is stock? Is there some special kind of alignment needed? Did not find any on that in the service manual though.
     
  2. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    As far as throttle shaft play...... I have NOS carbs that have some. As long as it is not excessive not really an issue. I've had some that were whistling dixie and they did need to be re-bushed but most get by fine.
     
  3. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    This seems like one of those threads that go on and on from one problem to another with no resolution in sight for any one problem. Now you have starter problems?
     
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  4. Electra Sweden

    Electra Sweden Well-Known Member

    Alright! I have put bushings on both the primaries as well as the secondaries so should not have any leaks there.

    Wonderful, isn't :) But soon enough it will be cruising down the road again, I know it!

    Found a few things on the starter when searching around:
    • Clearance between the flex plate gears (wrote ring gear previously ) and the starter gear has to be checked and the starter might need shimming.
    • The bolts have knurls helping aligning the starter. I noticed I have such knurls, but they are a bit worn down.
    • There was a rear support bracket stock that I do not have. Is it worth the trouble procuring/making one?
    Btw, here is a good video on the mechanical aspects of the starter. As far as I can tell, on of these starters is even the same as on the Buick 455:
     
  5. Schurkey

    Schurkey Silver Level contributor

    YES. (But I'd have called it the FRONT support bracket.)


    The Chevy starter (straight-across bolt holes) for the Chevy 153-tooth flywheel is the same as the Buick starter. The Chevy starter (diagonal bolt holes) for the Chevy 168 tooth flywheel is not.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
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  6. Electra Sweden

    Electra Sweden Well-Known Member

    So I'd thought I share some good news for a change.

    The starter would have needed shimming. It probably bottomed out on the ring gear and the cone on it was broken. However, I could reuse the cone from the old starter so the whole debacle only set me back a few extra hours of work. Just peeled out the new bushing from the cracked cone and reused it. So a reasonable price paid for a lesson learned. Starter spins like a tornado.

    I ordered a used distributor. Upon arrival I saw I had gotten one for Pontiac. I was so tired of this never ending distributor story so I raced online and bought an HEI distributor from Speedway Motors. I would have gotten the one from TA performance if their international shipping was not so dang expensive compared to what Speedway Motors could offer on eBay. Then I got myself some MSD ignition cables, not pre-crimped ones so I could have complete control over the wire lengths. New coolant hose that just sits with perfect clearance around the distributor. Yummy :)

    And the big bear of a V8 just crawled out of his cave, growling ferociously after a too long hibernation. Feels so good that it runs again :) The hot start issues seems to be gone, I just need to glance at the ignition switch and it fires up. Couldn't even hear the starter as it fired up so quick, almost scary. Engine vacuum is so steady I almost thought the gauge needle had seized up. Getting closer to the first spring cruising :cool:
     
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  7. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Good to hear it’s running!
     
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  8. Electra Sweden

    Electra Sweden Well-Known Member

    Oh dang it. Was replacing the PCV grommet and off course the bottom part of the old one broke off and fell into the engine. I saw it between the heat shield and the China wall. I failed to retrieve it and it fell down further. It is probably down by the camshaft and lifters now so I guess I cannot let this one slide. It the grommet was pretty hardened, should be really bad if pulverizes lower valve train I suppose. So I guess pulling the intake should be the right thing to do, anything else that is good to check/do while anyway having the intake off?

    EDIT: I see two types of intake gaskets being sold for the machine. One with the heat shield integrated, and one "minimalistic". Suppose it depend on what intake is used? Normally I always replace gaskets, but replacing the whole heat shield might be a bit over the top?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
  9. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

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  10. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    It was oil once, so it's fine...


    If you can still see it, you can try using a length of heater hose attached to a shop vac.

    (Long enough that you cannot fit all of it into the intake area in case it falls off the shop vac hose.)
    I have used duct tape and wiped the rubber hose and shop vac hose with alchohol to degrease.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
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  11. Electra Sweden

    Electra Sweden Well-Known Member

    A scope would be nice!

    Nice tips, will try next time! A shopvac sound like a good method to grab on to it.

    The problem is it already passed the heat shield intake gasket down toward the camshaft. There is a gap between the heat shield and the engine block where it was lodged and I happened to push it down pass the heat shield. It was the whole lower portion of the grommet, and quiet hard. So just not great if it is ground down by the camshaft and lifters, far away from the oil filters? Heat and oil should soften it but it would still leave quiet a bit of gunk around...
     
  12. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    Most likely it will sit where it fell, or fall through the bottom of the valley and spend the rest of its life in the oil pan.
    Even if it managed to be broken up and picked up by the oil pickup, it would end up in the filter.

    I would bet you would find quite a few engines with grommets in them given how many times it happens, with no damage.

    That said, in the world of aircraft maintenance, other than blind/sealed areas with no components to impact every foreign object that could be retrieved, was. With very few exceptions. Those were x-rayed, and monitored for migration on set aircraft operation hours.

    No one is going to criticize you if you leave it or pull the intake to retrieve it.

    You have to have the peace of mind you can live with.

    Besides, if you enjoy doing the work, pulling the intake and all that goes with it, can be good therapy for the daily grind of life.
     
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  13. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Plus how many people have driven thousands of miles with nylon timing gear teeth in their oil pan:D
     
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  14. Electra Sweden

    Electra Sweden Well-Known Member

    I think the reasoning here is quiet spot on. Yes I was curious about what this particular engine would look like on the inside, and yes this gave me peace of mind :) As you say, likely the piece would make its way to the oil pan before being ground up too badly. But given how much I value this engine and car I didn't think it was worth the risk. I will never try and replace this grommet with the intake on the engine again hehe. Worse thing is that this was an assesment I had done before, that it wouldn't be worth it. That grommet does not have to be very leak tight anyway. But then I somehow bought a grommet to have laying around and couldn't resist the temptation to have some new shiny rubber on the engine. I shouldn't but stuff I shouldn't put in might be a lesson learned :)

    However, when having the intake off I found something that made the mistake with the grommet worthwhile. It seems that the seal between the intake and the exhaust ports was not adequate. Look at all the crud. At the very least this would degrade the oil faster. And if the exhaust ports leaked, there might as well have been vacuum leaks too. I don't know the reason for this, maybe someone before cheaped out and re used an old gasket. Also the intake bolts were unevenly tight. Some bolts were almost loose, and others required a breaker bar to come loose. Maybe screws had creeped over time, or maybe the bolts were never properly installed. Or maybe some inappropriate sealer compound was used on the surfaces, that deteriorated and shrunk over time. The gasket surfaces were nice and straight at least, measured max 0.1 m.m deviations over the whole length of the gasket surface using a straight edge and feeler gauges.

    20230224_183531.jpg

    There are different opinions on wether to complement this gasket with RTV. But the Fel Pro gasket came with what I think is rebranded Permatex Gray and they sad to put a thin layer around the intakes and 1/8" around the coolant port. I hope Fel Pro is right, doesn't sound like it could hurt at least. TA performance recommends a slightly different approach: http://www.taperformance.com/PDF/Intake_Instructions.pdf.

    Cleanup was probably the most time consuming. Especially inside the engine. I put rags to protect the lifter valley and used a sharp chisel with a shop vac against it for most of the process inside the engine. I did not use any wire brushes or steel wool inside the engine to avoid the risk of having parts of those ending up inside. Cylinder 2 and 4 had a bit of buildup on the valves as well as the intake ports. This probably tells us that these cylinders have been running colder than the others at some part of history?
    20230224_190013.jpg

    20230224_225303.jpg

    Time for all this was around 8-9 hours for me, start to end. A little more than I expected, as is often the case:) Cleanup was the most time consuming, spent 2-4 hours on the mating surfaces, the bottom of the intake, the intake ports and the threads. This type of valley pan gasket is quiet awkward to handle. Next time I think I buy one of those compound gaskets, and have the valley pan separate from the gasket itself. Also I need some proper place and method for parts cleaning. As a side note, casting quality of this machine does not looks very impressive. Lots of uneven edges here and there.
     
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