Be sure to head on over to products and services section and cast your vote! Link is here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?270832-Buick-350-Shorty-Headers
Ok, voting's over. TA's gonna make shorty headers for the Buick 350 IF they can get 25 people to sign up. They also need a donor car. See link. :TU:
65-67 ( manual trans ) fit is a problem for me , and they are gonna look alot better and flow at LEAST a little better - especially on the driver side . that is worth some serious thought . are we contacting TA direct i take it ?
Whoever is interested in signing up for a set, putting down a deposit, or letting TA borrow your car for a mockup (in exchange for a free set of shorty headers), sign up here. G
gary : any guesstimate on dif body styles/years these MAY fit ? I have a nice star wars I've been saving but may sell to help fund these headers but hate to sell that and then not be included in the mix . just thinkin .
Well a small version (1 5/8" primaries, 2 1/2" collectors) with exits similar to manifolds would probably fit pretty much anything the engine will fit into with exhaust manifolds, since they'd be 'block hugger' type with little if any extra clearance issues over manifolds. This kind of shorty header would be less desirable, since it probably wouldn't provide much benefit over ported and polished exhaust manifolds. It would gain SOME, but people probably wouldn't consider it worth the cost--maybe 5-10 hp? The shorty headers that will probably be offered will be ones that improve power over manifolds substantially enough to warrant their cost (somewhere around 25-30? HP over manifolds on 350+ HP engines). For folks who want better flow with ported iron or the aluminum heads in applications where full length won't fit. These will have more clearance issues than smaller shorty's or manifolds I'm sure, but way more clearance than full length and much easier installation with maximum ground clearance. Size on these will probably be (if it were me making them, this is what I'd make them) 1 3/4" primary and 3" collector. TA already has the flanges for both sizes , and using their 3" big block shorty collectors along with the 3" to 2" reducers (which can be cut and modified to reduce to anywhere in-between 3" and 2" exhaust downpipes), would make an ideal product for performance oriented applications where full length headers won't fit, or fit poorly with ground clearance issues. Cars that these will fit will be earlier A body cars and G body cars primarily, and even the cars that the full length headers fit ('68-'72 A body, '71-'76 B body) will benefit from these with improved ground clearance and ease of installation. Ideally, 2 or even 3 versions of these shorty's would be offered for various applications. Maybe not at first, but after initial sales and demand increased. With everyone jumping boat over to Chevy engine transplants, the 350 Buick shorty headers might die off before they ever get a chance, unfortunately. Then again, once the aluminum heads come out and some shortys paired up with it hammers out impressive power for the money, people might come back to the Buick 350. Time will tell. G
2 things to say 1- I think you hit the nail on the head AND 2- Well the buick 350 has big issues of supply and demand, not many make a lot of goods to build a Buick 350, so why build it? Personaly I look at it as companies should supply it and it will sell. the other thing is no effense to ANYONE who has said this Quote "don't mess with the buick 350, build a Buick 455, it's cheaper and takes less to make it better" Just remember saying that takes a way the supply and Demand for the engine. I chose to build a buick 350 over chevy 350 because a Buick 350 in a BUICK Regal to me just sounds better and A LOT of G-bodies have chevys. Chevy 350 is very cheap to build and almost anyone can throw it together I just don't see How the most common engine in history captures the moment. Honesty It's very hard to turn down Blue print chevy 383 430HP/450 torque 30 month/50,000mile warrenty for$3700 from Jegs. Just the though makes me think on it because to get those Numbers out of my Buick 350 is going to be more then that for sure and I have no warrenty. Just my opinion and far as "time will tell" I hope things get better for the buick 350 I'm 23yrs And I have my regal with a mild build buick 350 and in the future I would like to build My other buick 350 better and more HP/torque. I do wish the engine and other engines out there in the dark get some notice. Josh
Dollar per HP no one can beat a small block chevy. It just isn't happening. Not nowadays anyway. The parts can be obtained from your local grocery store practically, and they are pretty affordable and readily available in any flavor or shade you could imagine. My uncle gave me (yes, just GAVE me) a 1974 corvette, but I didn't really want it honestly. He said it's lying around in pieces and was about to be restored, but he's got so many 'vettes and my aunt is making him get rid of it. I toyed with the idea of building a 383 for it, and yeah it would move pretty good I guess, but my heart and mind will always be about Buicks. Why build Ford? Why build Mopar? They cost more too, yet people still build them. I guess there's much to be said about 'being different' but not so much just for the simple reason to be different but to have something that not everyone else has. It will cost more, plain and simple. It's just the nature of the beast. So why build a Buick? and what's more, why a 350? Aside from being different, they have some admirable qualities that you won't find in a SBC. *They are lighter (much lighter), because: *They have more nickel content in the block, making the material stronger so it needs less, resulting in: *They don't need 4 bolt mains--4 bolts in softer, less durable iron such as what's used for the cheaper small block chevy's is actually needed for anything much over mild builds *Less diversity means less guesswork as to what you actually have when you own a Buick. If you own a Buick engine, you have a good piece of engineering on your hands. SBCs (depending on CID) can be some of the ****tiest engines around because of crap materials and cheap workmanship/engineering, OR you could get your hands on one of the few gems that are actually good engines. The good ones are highly sought after by enthusiasts and will not be cheap. *The Buick 350 is extremely durable, wears out much slower, and will pretty much last you the rest of your life if you build it mild and take care of it. *Low center of gravity. The Buick 350 has a very wide stance and has more material sitting below the motor mounts, giving it a lower and more centralized center of gravity. While this is not really advantageous for drag racing, it is highly desirable for handling characteristics the car will exhibit on the road in every day driving. Its lighter weight only contributes to this noticeable advantage. *It displays engineering genius that was available in the late 60's and 70's that carried over into the famous Buick 3.8 litre v6. That v6 was famous for a reason, and now, the 350 has the potential to become famous for the same reason (forced induction). *The open chamber combustion design is not an accident or design flaw. You will notice the big blocks have a quench plate on the heads. It is there because it needs it due to the larger chamber design with the widest bore of all the 455's. (yes, shortest stroke also means widest bore) The 350 does not need this because it has the narrowest bore of all the 350's coupled with the longest stroke. Where this is important is when the piston comes up to TDC. Studies show smaller combustion chambers, coupled with dish piston design (which the Buick 350 has) creates better flame travel and leads to less detonation and therefore doesn't suffer adversely from having no quench--which also means it can sit anywhere below the deck it wants (though closer to zero is still better), adding to its versatility and usefulness over quench chamber designs. *Parts availability isn't as sparse as one might initially think, since it shares many of the foundry tooling for parts with its smaller brothers, including the v6's. Everything except the distributor will interchange from the front of the v6 to the 350, and vice-versa. Even the 3.8 pistons can be used in 350's, it just takes 8 instead of 6. *It sits in the same place as its little v6 brother, uses the same motor mounts, is only 4" longer and 50 lbs. more. Put on an aluminum intake from TA and it becomes only 10 lbs. more than a v6. There's more, but those are what I can think of off the top of my head. I suppose everything has its charm and usefulness. Lots of people like to use Buicks for their boats because they're lighter. This is a distinct advantage that Chevrolet will never enjoy.
All good points except for the "lower center of gravity" theory. The heads and the intake that sit on the top,probably weigh more than the short block,making me think it is more top heavy. Hell,the cast iron intake probably weighs half of what the block weighs? (they heavy:eek2:,that face is what happens when you lift one:laughAnd the 2 heads combined probably weighs close to what the block weighs,if not more. But even being top heavy,its lighter than a sbc with al. heads and intake,and even more so with an aluminum intake on it,would shave 30-50 lb.o No:
I have not actually weighed my turbo kit but going to a custom alum intake saved about 40 pounds and removing the cast iron manfiolds saves some weight. I would not be surprised if my 350 weighed about 450 pounds with the turbos hung off it... pretty light for a engine that should push my heavy car into the 10s in the quarter mile.
I still think that they have better center of gravity even with the iron intake. The wider stance and sitting lower in the compartment is why I think this, though I have not done any actual math to calculate the physics. With the aluminum intake it would for sure, even if not so much with the iron intake. The engine by itself isn't what I was referring to in terms of lower center of gravity, but as it sits in the car. I could be wrong though. That big ass nodular iron crank and the Y block will probably weigh more than the intake and heads. According to TA's catalog, the 350 intake weighs 56 lbs. and the iron heads aren't that big. They cover the narrowest bore 350s GM made. I don't know for sure how much each head weighs, but if they weighed 50 lbs. each, that would be around 150 for iron intake and heads, which is only 1/3 the total weight of the engine, placing 2/3 below. Coupled with a wide stance and more material below the motor mounts, and there you have your lower and more centralized center of gravity. The heads, even weighing 85 lbs. each, in addition to the intake, would still only equate to half the engine weight. The heads also sit lower and wider in relation to the block, and the iron intake is very low profile, hugging the top of the block pretty well, centralizing the weight further. This doesn't count any decking or shaving, which reduces weight and centralizes it even more. According to a source, the Buick 350 weighs 450 lbs, over the 400 lb. 231 v6, vs 600 lbs for SBC (another source indicates the SBC weighs 550 lbs). TA intake weighs 16 lbs, shaving off 40 making the Buick 350 weighing 410 lbs. with iron heads. Edit: found some weight figures: Heads (fully assembled) - 57 lbs. each (not sure which year these are, but the '68-'72 heads will likely weigh less than the later versions with more iron...but then there's porting) Stock 4Bbl. intake manifold with EGR, water outlet, etc.- 60 lbs. (I assume '68-'71 intakes will weigh less) Both driver's and passenger's exhaust manifolds - 23 lbs. (less with port and polish job) Assembled shortblock--273 lbs. So heads and intake weigh in at around 170 lbs. and the assembled shortblock at 273, which comes to 443 lbs. This doesn't include the accessories. Another source stated a 2 barrel Buick 350 with exhaust manifolds weighed in at 478 lbs. (2 barrel intake would weigh more because there's more iron vs 4 barrel intake)
Yes the rotating assembly probably weighs as much as the block,so 1/3 block,1/3 rotaing assembly,front cover,accessories and pulleys,and 1/3 heads and intake. But don't forget about the 10.187" deck height that the sbb has,a sbc only has a 9.025" deck height,that is why the intake is such a low profile design on a sbb. Plus the fact that the head design with how the exaust ports exit compared to the sbc(as an exaple)exit lower than a sbc head(looking at each head sitting on the head gasket mounting surface,on a bench next to each other),but are at close to the same exit height in a car,except for the exaust exiting angle.(the taller the deck height,the wider the 45 degree engine will be) The fully skirted oilpan rail on a sbb makes the oil pan shallower,while making the block look lower in the frame,which it needs to be because its a taller engine,but it really isn't much lower than other engines that don't have a fully skirted oilpan rail.(just looks like it because of the shallow oilpan)And I would think that the extra cast iron skirt would only ad about 5-15 extra pounds over a non-skirted engine to the bottom of the engine. In conclusion,I would think that just about all GM factory non-special edition sister cars,that the center of gravity would be very similar in the confines of the available space of the GM sister car chasis designs of Fisher Body of the time. But I will agree that with less weight on the front end,there is more handling potenial,and would be easier to get a 50/50 weight bias from front to back.(especially if Mike from TA made the sbb 350 aluminum heads available would make that even easier:Brow :beer Derek
* you can bore it .090 over safely * ported heads with the bigger valves and a s/p intake you can turn 7500rpm safely * you can grind rod dia to honda 1.88 and go 7500rpm * you can overheat engine (300*) and not warp heads or blow h/g's * you can s/charge it w/ no issues * all facts, no b/s
Well the comparison was mostly 'why do 350 if you go Buick' whereas most guys opt for the bigger cubed blocks (generally it's sbb vs bbb in this regard), but the discussion began to lean more towards 'why do Buick anything vs chebby sb', so... You have valid points there Derek, and I'm already well aware of them--I'm not trying to disagree. I'm just trying to see as many advantages as possible for a sbb, since it needs all the help it can get vs the ever-popular sbc. Although: smaller oil pan is because of extra block skirt, they hold the same amount of oil per engine. There may not be hundreds of pounds below the motor mount level (4 or so extra inches deep, 1 or so inch thick circumference around the oil pan skirt would be a lot heavier than you think), but every bit counts and taken as a whole small advantages add up to a noticeable difference. There is more weight below the heads on every engine except for maybe an aluminum block with iron heads. p I still think the Buick 350 has a better center of gravity, even if it isn't by a mile. The lighter weight also helps, as I said originally, so yeah. Don't forget that all it takes is a simple intake swap to aluminum to tip the scales even further, MUCH further in fact, over a SBC, simply because the intake is so much larger on a Buck 350 and so the weight savings is significantly greater. The biggest advantage I see Chevy having over Buick is the pricetag. So do you want Bud Light or Samuel Adams? They'll both get you drunk, one costs more but tastes better, the other leaves a bad taste in your mouth and is available at every convenience store in the country. :beers2: ---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ---------- I believe if we were to make an exhaustive (pardon the pun) list, people would see clear advantages where they may not have noticed or realized before. Buick has nothing to hide. It never needed exaggerated figures to impress someone by the seat of their pants. While one would spend a small fortune trying to get a Buick 350 to turn similar RPMs and power figures at those RPMs vs a SBC, this shies away from the true strength of the Buick 350, and that is its streetability and longevity, both of which can't be measured on a dyno and so are more subtle. It doesn't cost a lot to build a mild-moderate Buick 350, and it may not have over 400 HP at this level, but it'll have well over 400 ft. lbs. at this level, and at a much lower RPM, and will last 2-3 times longer than some hopped up cam chewing profile. The fact that it is durable enough to beef up beyond anyone's expectations, twisting SBC RPMs and hammering out big block power is just a bonus.
the cost to do more to engine is no more cost than to do it to a chevy or ford or whatever. preparation will always give you your money back in the long run.:TU:
I don't remember exactly, but when i first got my twin turbo kit and s/p SM intake(28lbs), I weighed everything and came out the same give or take..pretty sure I didnt factory in the weight shaved from removing the a/c stuff nor AL rad clipping from the MIA BillMah52 Aluminum Stage 1 weighs 16 lbs. Stock 350 weights: crank 50 pounds rods 12 pounds lifters 8 pounds heads 53 pounds each cam 7 pounds stk intake 53 pounds balancer 6 pounds timing cover with dist 8 pounds rockers and valve covers 6 pounds pistons 10 pounds block 160 oil pan 6 pounds. Stock 350 w/alum. intake just under 400 lbs. clipping from WAL block and caps (no bolts) 165.3lbs both heads (one exhaust valve missing) 116.8lbs iron intake 55.1lbs crank 55.1lbs pistons and rods (with bolts and nuts but half of one crown missing) 24.7lbs cam and timing set (no lifters) 8.8lbs = 425.8lb PLUS (parts I don't have) lifters 8lbs balancer 6lbs front cover and dist. 8lbs oil pan 6lbs =453.8lbs. Sounds about right. PLUS carb, fuel pump, starter, flex plate, water pump, alternater, fan,- belt and pulleys, spark plugs, exhaust manifolds, oil and filter, and ALL the bolts. does anyone know how much these extra items add to the total
