Buick 350 Shortblock build

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by DauntlessSB92, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    So then it shouldn't be an issue that the bearings are closer to the crank side? That was my other concern. Sorry about all the silly questions.
     
  2. Extended Power

    Extended Power Well-Known Member

    Just how much gap is there between the rods when you have the large radiused ends towards the crank?

    Saw a program that had 0.025" between the rods, and they called it good.
     
  3. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    Between the bearings? I didn't measure but it looked to be as much as 1/8"
     
  4. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    The rods can only go one way.. The side of the rod that has the bearing deeper away from the edge of the rod needs to go againsnt the crank counterweight.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    Those are the older rods, which in the 72 manual I have states which way they must be installed. I was just confused with the capscrew rods because facing the chamfer towards the crank isn't enough information since the chamfer appears identical on both sides.

    Calling TA to ask about it, one of the shop techs said a good rule of thumb is face the notches in the rod (bearing tangs) towards the oil pan rail. This puts the bearing further from the crank. So to simplify things you can also say that the dimples on the rods must face each other. Left bank faces backwards and right bank faces forwards. Just like 455 rods do.

    So unfortunately for me, all 8 pistons are installed wrong.

    The picture starts to become clearer now as to why the machine shop said we "didn't discuss" building the bottom end. Never mind the fact that I wrote down the price they quoted me to do so.

    They had no idea how these motors were assembled and figured it was best to lie instead of telling the truth that they weren't sure how to build it.

    I considered selling my 8 JE pistons and going with something higher compression but I suppose I should be fine at 8.5:1.

    I've also thought about trying to do a procharger setup or single turbo to simplify the build and speed it up since I've hit so many snags. I'm getting married over the summer and if this car isn't together and running by then it may be sitting covered up for quite a while...

    I've decided on an induction setup and I've sold my Q Jet. I'm strongly considering MPFI with Coil near plug spark. The hardest part of this setup will surely be the trigger wheel. To utilize a flying magnet from msd I would have to either order an ATI balancer with BBC pulley bolt pattern and use the BBC trigger wheel or I have to use a universal kit and figure out who I can have machine it to work with my balancer that is already have balanced to this rotating assembly

    Holley sells a universal multi port kit for $2100, I have to have the sp3 machines and the universal fuel rails machined. I'll need to also purchase coils and injectors. It would be pretty cool to have a setup like this and I think it's not much more of an expense over a TBI setup since holley states in can't use my magnetic pickup msd distributor regardless
     
  6. Buick#455

    Buick#455 Well-Known Member

    Take a look at this:
    www.fitechefi.com
    Price tag is $1495 for the 1200 hp one & you don't have to touch your new intake & will take up to 20lbs of boost.
    After my block is built, I'm strongly considering going with this set on my twin turbo set up!!
     
  7. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    I have looked at the fitech setup. It certainly is top of the market for its price. The closest competitor is the ez efi 2.0 which at this time is not boost ready.

    I've thought a lot about throttle body vs mpfi. I love the simplicity of tbi. The atomic efi for example: i helped install it on my friends 351w in his 59 f350 and it acts like a whole new truck. Sharp throttle, pulls hard and ridiculously simple to install and setup.

    With the single plane intake I worry about fuel distribution. I think it simplifies things going to multi port. I have less to worry about as far as having a lean cylinder and I have more adjustability for any potential issues. If I use the dominator ecu I can run 2 channel wideband to be extra safe.

    I really want to go with a holley product. The expandability, use of oem quality sensors and components, tech support and the fact that you can allow it to self learn or tune it with the laptop just seems to offer the best fit for my preferences.

    It will allow me to simplify my overall setup (no more cd box, no distributor, no wideband/ boost controller gauge) plus with a tablet I can have all the info I need visible on the screen at all times and I'll no longer need analog gauges which are difficult to see anyway.

    Besides, building a Buick 350 is different, why not be even more different and build it is if you could go to the dealership today and buy a car with a Buick powerplant.
     
  8. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Can't you swap from bank to bank or are they still wrong?
     
  9. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    Still wrong, so all 8 of them have to be switched around. I took the two pistons I installed back out and removed all the rings. Since the Pistons are just getting flipped it will be easier to keep track of the rings.
     
  10. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Some info to help with your carb vs efi situation:

    1. I used a custom CSU carb and out of the box it runs great and the air fuel ratio under boost is very good. No wires, no sensors, it just works well. Cold starts take a few minutes before it smooths out but no big deal. I have nice even distribution with my single plane all the plugs are looking good. I am confident the SP3 will also give good fuel distribution but more testing will say for sure.

    2. Efi is great, but there are a lot of extra complications to do it right. I had a multi port efi system and i sold it as they develop so quickly that each year they get better and better... I am waiting a few more years before i buy another system but the way my carbs perform i may never switch.

    In my opinion here is where i draw the line with the LS engines.. I have 2 6.0 ls engines in my garage and 3 5.3 LS engines for my gm truck projects... If i were looking for multiport efi and getting rid of the dist. Etc for a buick project then the LS engines make way too much sense. For the $ it would take to convert a sbb intake to mpfi you could have a 6.0 in the engine bay.

    These engines are great, but they are what they are and nothing wrong with a carb and a hei even if boosted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
  11. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    So I feel like an idiot... But I think my bottom end situation is finally squared away. Long story short I had a realization. Buicks are off center blocks, as are a lot of engines. This requires off center rods. The only way to correctly install the rods is with the bearings closer towards the center of the crank throw. Forget the chamfers, dimples, and piston grooves. Once I install the rods with the bearing tangs towards the oil pan rail (Dimples towards each other, bearings towards center) then the rods will be centered in the pistons and it won't matter what direction the pistons have been installed since they are totally symmetrical aside from one pocket being deeper than the other. Since I was so hung up on this piston pocket (It appeared that if I switched the direction of the rods the small end balance pad would contact the piston) I didn't think to just install the rods the correct way and check it out and jumped right to assuming the pistons were on backwards.

    Bear with me as I know that all sounds confusing but I think everything is sorted out now and the build can continue. Sorry, I'm not a machinist or engine builder so I am learning something new everyday:laugh:

    This explains things a bit
    http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/on-center-vs-off-center-production-vs-stage-2.323208/
     
  12. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Burton is building turbo kits again, he is working on a single setup for me.

    Once together properly it will be easy to turn over the engine by hand, do it wrong it will bind up.

    Like I was saying before just make sure the side of the rod that has the bearing deeper from the edge rides against the crank counterweight.
     
  13. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    I see what you are saying about the ridges but I'm glad to know now that there are several identifying parts to these rods and how they should go in. I'll take some good pictures this weekend and point out what I've noticed. That way if guys like me come around doing the same it will be easy to understand

    The chamfer thing makes it too confusing because these rods have a chamfer on both sides and it looks almost identical.

    Sean how can I get in touch with him? Really I'm just looking for manifolds. I'd like to piece the turbos and stuff together myself
     
  14. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Pm or email me and I can get you in touch....

    As a matter of fact he is looking to sell headers instead of full
    Kits.... Plus he will still provide help to his customers, the man is very smart.
     
  15. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    Here are some pics to clear up what I've realized. Maybe it's common knowledge to most but I learned about the difference between on center and off center motors and rods.

    Notice the forward side (left in picture) side of the connecting rod has a radius at the end while the other side is perfectly straight. This is also why the bearings are offset since the load on the bearings are not concentrated on the center of the big end but in line with beam of the rod. And the other picture shows that the rod is much closer to center of the piston now. I will still flip the Pistons the other direction so I have additional clearance at the pin end of the rod

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  16. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    You need to check your pistons to see if the wristpins are offset drilled, if so then they should only be installed one way usually with the mark on top of the piston facing the front of the block.

    I wish you wanted to buy those rods from me finished, I would of done a MUCH nicer job than TA and the shop that balanced them! And yes they were all from the same engine. I would of race prepped them, that includes polishing the beams after they're reconned with the ARP bolts, bead blasting and balanced! I thought you were going to use those as cores to buy race prepped rods from TA so I didn't push the issue.

    The polishing the beams and bead blasting them gets rid of the stress risers to make them capable of handling up to 600 HP, the way they are now probably are only good for 500 to maybe 550 or maybe even less?, just an FYI



    Derek
     
  17. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    Derek I had no idea you were willing to do all that (for added cost of course) as I would have rather gone that route. I figured TA would have done it as part of their reconditioning process but when it received them from TA I saw that wasn't the case.

    There are lots of things I wish I did differently on this motor. But I started this project with an unrealistic deadline and then decided to start several other projects on the car at the same time. Would I have known then that I'd be 7 months later still working on getting the engine back together I'd probably have a custom crank, a main girdle, longer custom or take out rods and custom pistons. I just had it in my head that the car would be done by summer and it just never happened and I already bought the parts.

    Same thing with the cam. I wish I did my research and went with a larger cam. I feel like like this cam grind leaves a lot on the table. I spend money where I didn't need to and put effort into things I didn't need.

    So I haven't even turned the key yet and I've been constantly thinking of what my next build will be like. In the end I have to appreciate this for what it is. This is a motor built with all off the shelf parts. Nothing custom or one off or involved. I'm sure it will work well, make north of 300hp on motor and respond well to boost. I just would have loved to have something I know I could crank up to 11 and not have to worry about blowing it up.

    I have no cage though, lots of body work that needs doing and no experience driving anything faster than a 13 second car. So 500 horsepower is plenty for now. I already have another block for when I decide 500hp and high 11s isn't fast anymore.
     
  18. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    I am sure this will turn out well... After your first test drive with boost it will all be worth it, I know it was for me. I felt like a million bucks when a basically stock 350 was just plain scary to drive at more than 1/2 throttle.

    You can then enjoy the car and save up and work toward a new engine for the future, one step at a time.. By then I am sure there will be more low cost options for the rods and you can likely re-use a lot of parts from your current build.

    Did you get in touch with Mark?
     
  19. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick

    Mark sent me an email but I haven't heard back from him since my reply. So I'll try and touch base again on Monday

    I know it will be fun, as long as everything holds together it should be well worth it haha
     
  20. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Hell, I would of did the whole short block(or even complete engine) for you even with nascar take outs if you wanted to go that way? We could of even made it a stroker if you wanted more cubes?

    Being several states away I didn't think you would of wanted to go that route so I don't think I offered. If I knew how the shops there were maybe I would of offered, not sure you would of accepted though? Can't do it now, I just started a new job that will take me away from being able to play with other people's engines. Although I do have a few of my own that I may be able to squeeze in?(not sure though because they told me that 70% of the time I will be on the road)

    As long as the piston to wall clearance isn't excessive or not enough and the rings seat, your engine should do ok. I think you could even make more than the 300 HP without boost, that number is easy with 350 cid even with low compression. Factory heads flow just under 200 max CFM with very good low lift CFM capabilities. The rule of thumb I like to use to guess an engine's potential is to take the max flow times it by 2 and that gives you close to its HP potential with quality machining. Of coarse with higher compression and blueprinting techniques to get the efficiency over 100% then even more HP is possible than 2X the max CFM.

    If you want to stay at 500 HP and below then all the boost you'll probably need is no more than 3 or 4 PSI.(HP rated at the flywheel, gross) 500HP at the wheels will be a different story.



    Derek
     

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