Broken Off Timing Cover Bolt

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by Clarkie, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. Clarkie

    Clarkie Well-Known Member

    I swear, if I didn’t have bad luck.... Today, I was changing the water pump on my car. It’s been there for a couple of years, but the belt always squealed at higher rpm since I swapped it out. I assumed it was because the parts store pump was either the long or the short, either way it wasn’t right. The bearing on my old one seemed OK, so I painted it up and I chose today to swap it on. It turns out that the old pump was the short one and the replacement was long.

    I started with the removing the long bolts first. Of course the first three came out without a problem. They were incredibly worn, though (no longer their original diameter throughout their entire length). The last bolt didn’t feel good at all. I tried working it back and forth. My gut told me to stop, that the bolt was going to twist off. But no, I kept trying. That’s when the inevitable happened and it broke off.

    Now I have the fun task of tearing everything apart and drilling out the bolt.

    I’m looking for any tips, advice, etc. At this point I’m pretty bummed out. I just got the car running well again when this happened.
     
  2. Max Damage

    Max Damage I'm working on it!

    Don't freak out, it's going to be OK. Is the broken off bolt still mostly there? Often you can drill into it with a titanium coated bit and then use (the proper size) of screw extractor to get it. Once you have it out, chase all of the threads with the proper tap.

    It's been years since I had to do this. but patience and stubbornness got it done. There is also the (hopefully not necessary) Timesert product... https://www.timesert.com
    Good Luck!
     
  3. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Just finished pulling my entire timing cover because the gasket needed replacing. 3 of those 4 bolts go into water. It is important to use thread sealer on those bolts or they can rust into the block. That is probably what happened. Depending on how much of the bolt is still there, it may be easier than you think. Which bolt was it, driver or passenger, upper or lower?
     
  4. Clarkie

    Clarkie Well-Known Member

    It’s the driver’s side lower bolt. I’ll need a new water pump gasket and front cover gasket. Anything else? I’m going to try to mark the location of the distributor, cap and rotor to make getting it timed easier. What am I forgetting?
     
  5. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    One of the bolts doesn't go into water. Not sure which one, but I used Locktite 592 on all 4. I also put anti seize on the other threads. Turn the motor until the distributor rotor is pointing at #1, TDC firing #1. The fuel pump will come out and go back in with ease. Also, get a priming tool for the oil pump when you put it back together. Here is my timing cover thread for whatever it is worth. Some of it is good natured ball breaking:)

    http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/uhhh-timing-cover-leak.360985/
     
  6. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

  7. Clarkie

    Clarkie Well-Known Member

    I probably should get a new crank seal too, I imagine. Maybe a left-handed drill bit?
     
  8. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    If you have the TA cover, and the seal is not leaking, I would leave it alone. Mine wasn't leaking before, and it isn't leaking now after the job. I just put a little white grease on the seal edge and put the balancer back on. If you have a stock cover, yes, I would change the seal, it only comes out from the rear on the stock cover. I think you can convert over to the TA seal that goes in from the front. Seal # 450446,

    http://v8buick.com/index.php?thread...30-front-crank-seal-timing-cover-seal.344394/

    See how much of the bolt is left. Get the cover off.
     
  9. Max Damage

    Max Damage I'm working on it!

    I don't know what your experience level with these cars is, but as Larry said above "Also, get a priming tool for the oil pump when you put it back together."

    It's IMPERATIVE that you re-prime the oil pump (which lives in the timing case) before you restart the car. It won't prime if it started dry. You don't want to learn this lesson the hard way, I promise.
     
  10. Clarkie

    Clarkie Well-Known Member

    Good point, I’m going to make an order through Todd. I wonder if he carries a priming tool.
     
  11. Clarkie

    Clarkie Well-Known Member

    If it’s a slot on top of the shaft, could I modify an old slotted screwdriver and turn the pump with a drill?
     
  12. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    Now here’s a job that isn’t going to be easy. Don’t bother with the LH bits, that broken bolt won’t be spinning out. The most important thing here is to not break off any tooling in the broken bolt, or you’ll really have some fun and will likely be buying some Rescue bits. IMO, you will need to carefully center punch and drill the bolt out using new, quality drill bits. Start small and work your way up. Use cutting oil. DO NOT break off a drill bit! Easy-Outs or other extractors will not work, from my experience, and may make things worse. The idea is the drill the bolt out in 3-4 steps. Sometimes you can get lucky and when you get close to the bolt size (3/8”-16 IIRC) in a 32nd or 64th increment, you can peel the remaining threads out with a small pick. If you loose the threads, a Time Cert or Heli Coil will be ok to use.

    Again, don’t break off any tooling in the broken bolt! And make sure your center punch is as perfectly centered as you can get get.
     
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  13. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    Spot face/ grind the broken bolt end flat to center punch it in the center, then when drilling you won't be pushed off center by the uneven broken bolt end. Have patience....
     
  14. Clarkie

    Clarkie Well-Known Member

    Thanks, all excellent advice. I’m a sponge right now. Much appreciated.
     
  15. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    This is good advice. If the drill wanders off to the softer, cast iron block, then the job gets even uglier. Again, my experience has been that the bolt will break off in a jagged fashion, at the surface level or just below. But there’s no way to know for sure until the cover is off. I broke the same bolt in the 455 in my convertible 35 years ago, and during the last rebuild 10 or 11 years ago, I finally put a helicoil in. Time cert would be better.

    And yes, you can use a popular gasket maker (Right Stuff) on both sides of the timing cover gasket. That’s what I do and have for decades in who knows how many 100’s of gasket sealing jobs, and it is an absolute requirement in my shop. Not sure where that myth started from. I adhere the gasket to the component and let it sit overnight, and then put a coat on the other side and assemble.
     
  16. BuickV8Mike

    BuickV8Mike SD Buick Fan

    Start with a small drill maybe 1/16". You can then center the hole later, if required. Take your time.
     
  17. Max Damage

    Max Damage I'm working on it!

    Huh, hearing you guys describing drilling the broken bit out seems very familiar to me too. I am pretty sure at some point I was able;e to use a screw extractor to remove the husk of the broken bolt...
     
  18. Schurkey

    Schurkey Silver Level contributor

    Fantastic product. Seals VERY well, prevents thread galling for easier removal.
    If this was me, the entire shank of those bolts would get a coat of anti-seize, so they don't corrode to the aluminum of the front cover.



    BEFORE you drill broken bolts--especially if there's some amount of material above the threaded hole to work with--HEAT IT.

    No, propane is not hot enough, at least not without adding some oxygen. Neither is "MAP-Pro" gas. You really need Oxy-Acetylene or one of those fancy new "inductive" heating coils. The bolt stub needs to be CHERRY red, or warmer. Just shy of melting is ideal. Some guys drip candle wax on the thing as it cools down.

    Then let it cool back to "room temperature". You might spin the thing right out with a vice-grip.

    Alternative: Use a MIG welder to "hot glue" a steel nut onto the stub of the broken bolt. Again, the heat does wonders and the nut gives you something to put a tool onto. I did this with the exhaust manifold bolts on my 6-popper Trailblazer engine. One broke off leaving a quarter-inch of stud to hang a nut on. Easy. The other broke flush or a little below the surface, I had to blob weld material onto the broken bolt to raise it above the head, so I had something to weld the nut to. Not as easy. I "welded" about a dozen nuts to that blob of metal, they all twisted right back off when the ratchet and socket went on. The last nut held.

    Either way...HEAT BEFORE DRILLING. The heat alone may "do the trick".

    Don't get me started on using a "gasket maker" as if it were a gasket sealer. There's a dozen or more different brands of gasket sealers, and every one of them seals gaskets better than a "gasket maker".
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
    bostoncat68, GS464 and BuickV8Mike like this.
  19. TORQUED455

    TORQUED455 Well-Known Member

    My experience with heating is this. Yes, heat with an oxyacetylene torch or a Miniductor can do wonders for stuck or broken fasteners. Same with welding a nut on. However, given the nature of the situation, the materials and the age of the block, I would skip all of the other methods, get a good, flat surface on the broken bolt, and drill, baby, drill! I have found that if you heat the broken fastener until it glows, cool it etc, and it doesn’t come out then you are left with a broken bolt that is even harder to drill. Start with a drill bit larger than 1/8”. The smaller the drill bit, the more likely it is that you will break it off. Use a drill with 2 speeds, and set on the slower setting. Use cutting oil, and try to get good “streamers”, or long shavings. When you get those rolling, and this will be at a slower speed, you’ll know what speed to use.

    There is no sense in using an easy-out or other extractor. Once you have a hole large enough to use one of those, you can finish the job by drilling, not risking breaking an extractor off. Can a left-handed bit spin the bolt right out? Sure. Can this or that work? Sure. If that job was in front of me, I’ve told you exactly what I would do and exactly why, basing it off of a lifetime of experience from being in the trenches.

    Schurky, I’m not sure what your problem is with using a gasket maker such as the Right Stuff as a sealer? I have had zero issues and no comebacks using TRS as a sealer and a gasket maker, and I’m not sure how anything else can improve upon that? I make sure to tell the Right Stuff that it’s not going on a gasket, so it won’t leak or cause any other problems.

    Again, this is MHO. YMMV.
     
    bostoncat68 likes this.
  20. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

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