70 455 Stage-1 Heads Dilemma

Discussion in 'The Mixing shop.' started by J. Jaeger, Dec 1, 2021.

?

Should I Restore my First Set of Heads ..or Buy a Second Set of Restored Heads?

  1. First set...already 3,500 invested

    80.0%
  2. Second Set..4,000 cost

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. J. Jaeger

    J. Jaeger Well-Known Member

    I have Genuine 70 GS 455 Stage-1 Convertible that has been a nightmare of a Stock,
    Frame-Off Restoration for literally decades. Most of it has been Outsourced to those better equipped than myself. Frame & Bodywork is Complete..except for Primer..waiting for Paint. My NOS Short Block was torn apart and Rebuilt about 2003 and stored with Cosmoline Coating for Protection and wrapped for storage until more funds came later. Then I had some Correct Coded Heads restored to
    70 Stage-1 Specs. ..but found out afterwards Machine Shop was Afraid of the tight Stage-1 Valve Specs..and fudged with it to **Close Enough.***
    I now need to know if it's worth it to buy Restored Iron 455 Stage-1 Heads through *Taperformance*
    Or Just have the First set Rebuilt again by Another Shop...
    Need Advice...
    Jim J.
     
  2. 72STAGE1

    72STAGE1 STAGE 1 & 2

    Question #1……How is it even possible to spend $3500 on a set of factory Iron heads?

    Question #2……How is it even possible to spend $4000 on a set of factory Iron heads?
     
    john.schaefer77 likes this.
  3. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    I dont know where you are, but around here its no where near that much.

    I just sent some bbc head through the shop, its didn't need any parts besides seals and it was 350. Did some olds heads that took virtually ever part you could think of and it wasn't even 1000.

    I'd be more than glad to send them through the shops here to save u some money
     
  4. J. Jaeger

    J. Jaeger Well-Known Member

    Ben, my estimate of $4,000 for Buying a Rebuilt set of Correct, Date coded 70 Stage-1 Heads from TA Perfect was estimated from their Catalog. That Includes about $250 Core Charge for each head. It might be a Little less.
    My other choice was, Rebuild the pair I already had Rebuilt years ago, and have been on a shelf ever since, while the car was being Restored. I don't even know if the Old shop didn't accurately place the Stage-1 Valves close enough for Stage-1 Specs...Can the Heads Safely be Re-Drilled to Stage-1 Specs?
    I spent a lot of hard earned money only to have that "Professional Shop" miss the mark.
    I am certainly NOT Made of Money. I am also physically unable to do any Engine or Bodywork myself. I am a 100% Svc. Connected Disabled Veteran, from my time in the U.S. Marine Corps.
    To make things even more difficult I moved here to Arizona, But Car and Engine, all parts are still in my Home State of Illinois at Body Shop and a Machine Shop.
     
  5. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Maybe it's just me, but I am not sure why you think your existing heads are not good anymore. What exactly did they do to the heads that makes you think they are now boat anchors? Exactly why are they not to spec anymore? Stage1 valves measure 2.125" and 1.75", intake and exhaust respectively. If I was going to drop 4000.00 on a set of heads, I'd either buy aluminum, or I would put that money towards porting of the iron heads. No one would look at your heads and say, hey, those aren't Stage1 heads, or hey, those are out of spec. In fact, they wouldn't be able to tell anything about them at all, and the increased performance from the porting would make you quickly forget about "the specs".
     
    69GS430/TKX and 12lives like this.
  6. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    I can see where keeping the original heads for a number matching stage car is a good thing. If you ever sell the car it will eliminate any explanations. But it sounds like that is not the case here? You could ask on the board for someone near the car to go through the heads for you or take them to a qualified shop. They can check them and correct any discrepancies. I would think it won't cost that much.
    Thank you for your service!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  7. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    Also, I think the prices at TA are for a pair of heads? $1500 for refurb's. Mike?
     
  8. J. Jaeger

    J. Jaeger Well-Known Member

    Thanks Everyone, I guess I need to ask the New Machine Shop in East Peoria if they can make make the adjustments to those Old Restored Heads to make them Exact Stage-1 Qualified, since Date Codes are Correct. This Shop told me they needed to be Rebuilt, since they've been sitting on a shelf for almost 18 Years after the Rebuild. They also have my NOS Crated Short Block and are Rebuilding that as well.. It has also been Sitting in Storage after Rebuild from Crate....If that Doesn't work out I'll let you know and ask you to help me find a NEW Machine Shop.
    Thanks again, Jim Jaeger
    ( Semper Fi )
     
  9. 12lives

    12lives Control the controllable, let the rest go

    Just because something has sat doesn't mean it needs rebuilt. Generally, only if its rusty, filthy, damaged, etc. Your short block was stored in cos, packed, and crated? Clean the cosmoline off and see what it looks like. Sounds like they are looking for money.
    Other opinions?
     
  10. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Jim, what adjustments? What is actually wrong with them?
     
  11. J. Jaeger

    J. Jaeger Well-Known Member

    Hi Larry, These Heads were a set of used old Iron Heads, I bought years ago from from a Man in Missouri through Ebay.
    If I remember right he seemed very Knowledgeable about Buick Engines.
    And his Last name was Cardinal.

    I had the Heads Cleaned and Restored by a an old Time Racer, Local Legend in Lacon Illinois Called Animal Jim Fuerer.
    He said they were filthy with Oil and dirt but were in Perfect Factory Condition. He proceeded to clean and Restore them, but said he was afraid to get the Stage-1 Valves Too Close to Each Other, but documented everything, as you would expect from a Professional Machinist.

    Now these have been sitting on o shelf for almost 18 years untouched.

    The adjustments to the heads, would consist of doing whatever it would take, to make the Valve Heads almost touch each other, as all of the Factory Stage-1 Heads did, when they left the factory.

    Do you know if these can safely be moved closer to Spec without ruining the Structural integrity of the Heads..??
     
  12. DaWildcat

    DaWildcat Platinum Level Contributor

    The Standard and Stage 1 valves share identical valve stem spacing. Unless a guide has been improperly bored off center to have a bronze insert added, the Stage 1 valves will work just fine.

    Besides the larger diameter valve seats, the Stage 1 chambers were opened up a bit to help the bigger valves flow better. Adding the bigger valves without opening up the chambers defeats the purpose of the bigger valves, FYI.



    455_head_standard.jpg 455_head_stage1.jpg

    Devon
     
    69GS430/TKX likes this.
  13. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Here are pictures of Stage1 heads, and standard 455 heads.

    455_head_stage1.jpg 455_head_standard.jpg

    I find it very hard to believe that whatever this old time racer did ruined the heads. I suggest you have someone reputable check the heads. This may be much a do about nothing.
     
  14. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Beat me to it Devon.:D
     
  15. pbr400

    pbr400 68GS400

    Before aluminum heads were available, it was fairly common to convert small valve heads to Stage 1. (It doesn’t make sense now-converting and porting iron is $1300 plus and they still don’t touch aluminum for flow). It DOESN’T involve ‘moving’ the valves, they stay in the same place. The seats need to be enlarged (and often shops will blend, clean up and even port them at the same time). If your machinist isn’t comfortable doing it, and can’t explain it any better than ‘not sure about how close they’ll be’, get another machinist. He may not be qualified. At best he doesn’t want to do it.
    Patrick
     
  16. DaWildcat

    DaWildcat Platinum Level Contributor

    I was thinking of you the whole time I was typing :D!

    Devon
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  17. Houndogforever

    Houndogforever Silver Level contributor

    The location of the valve stem doesn't change between standard and Stage 1. Any pair of standard heads can be machined to be stage one heads. It is just a larger valve.
    The larger valves are what causes the distance between the valves to reduce and get very close. That is as designed. The only other difference in the heads is the valves are "unshrouded" on the Stage 1. Just means a little bit of material was removed around in the combustion chamber to help.

    If these heads have been sitting on a shelf, and already have the stage 1 valves in them, I would think taking them apart, cleaning, re-lubing and possibly lap the seats and it should be good to go.
    A few years ago, I had a set of stage 1 factory heads rebuilt. It cost me $600 back about 7 years ago, so your pricing is excessive.
     
  18. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    ya, the full boat with all new valves and parts, with guides and complete surfacing on a set of iron heads is no where near 2K, let alone more. I think the last estimate I did on set was 1400 ish, and that included a Stage 1 conversion. Not sure how anyone, anywhere comes up with 3-4 K for iron heads, unless your doing a full competition port job.

    Keep in mind, vendors often price things to discourage you from buying them, especially when they are selling an alternative product.

    Ask around your area, car clubs and race tracks, and get the name of a reputable shop.. bring them in and have them checked out.

    JW
     
  19. J. Jaeger

    J. Jaeger Well-Known Member

    Now that all of you have explained how the Stage-1 Valves fit and the Shroud issue...Some of it is starting to come back to me. Now I recall reading about all this in a Series of Buick Books by Steven L. Dove (about 30 or more years ago). I still have all his books...just don't know where they are. I have moved a lot over the years.
    I am now more comfortable making a decision on this Build. I just wanted it Done Right as a Complete Stock and Correct Build.
    This car would probably have been scrapped by most other people. I bought it as a very rough project to drive every day...but It kind of Sucked Me In... My wife calls it Christine ..like the Movie. She grew to hate the car and the many car parts I kept under the Bed for Years.
    I want to Thank you ALL, for your patience and helping me work through this process.

    Thanks again,
    Jim Jaeger ( Semper Fi )
     
  20. 72STAGE1

    72STAGE1 STAGE 1 & 2

    I wouldn’t have a problem dusting those heads off and running them just as they are, provided they were kept dry. Semper Fi.
     

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