68 Ram Air Firebird ??

Discussion in 'The "Other" Bench' started by WE1, Feb 4, 2007.

  1. WE1

    WE1 Well-Known Member

    Ok, its not a RA car. PHS docs confirm regular bird with 350, black deluxe interior, console, tinted glass. crap!
    Now the only question (and real value to this car in my opinon) is the four speed and RA hood with hood tach. And the 5,500 rpm redline is still somewhat of a puzzle. The scoops are in fact open and haven't been altered, and the small cutout on the pass side framing as RA2 pointed out seems to indicate a RA hood (along with the screw holes for holding the air pan). So we're waiting to hear from previous flakey owner on the availability of the RA parts he says he has. And how he ended up with those parts. Maybe the car those parts came from is around :Do No:
    So I guess this story is over.
    I didn't mean to lead anyone on as to the authenticity of a super rare RA car, but that's what was said to Ray and why he bought it believing it was such a car. Oh well, I guess he should have checked with PHS first. By the way, when he faxed in the VIN to PHS he had the results back in a matter of hours.
    Thanks for everyone's input.
     
  2. Tom Miller

    Tom Miller Old car enthusiast

    Not to be a smart-ass, or tell you something you already know now, but this car and the sale of this car is a prime example of why the PHS service is offered on a quick reply basis for a couple extra bucks, so people can see it's just a 350 car before plunking down hard earned money for what is claimed to be a 400 car.
    Sorry to hear it isn't what it was advertised to be.
     
  3. Dan K

    Dan K Well-Known Member

    Why did Pontiac keep their records and Buick didn't? Dan
     
  4. rdl

    rdl ...stocker 'n stocker

    Just some random thoughts...

    WE1 - Don't let your friend "overpay" for the used ram air pans. They are available as repro items.

    Dan K - If you're particular about cloning, Ram Air II (round port) is a '68 only package. Your '67 can be set up as a Ram Air (d port) clone. As for Pontiac records, it was just a fluke that someone came along at the right time to save the Pontiac records. Chevy's were reportedly destroyed in a fire. Buick records... don't know.

    ramAir2 - "friend": I'll take that.:TU:

    Tom Miller - Tom, stop being a smart ass. I know what's going on... you've got big cube envy! :grin:
     
  5. Dave H

    Dave H Well-Known Member

    :) :grin: :laugh:

    What a strange coincidence. All the Olds files were also destroyed by a fire. Not sure about Buick, but wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened in Flint, too. About all we (Olds) have for proof are the Canadian sold cars and the import/export paperwork on those cars.
     
  6. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member


    I think it was a matter of Jim Mattison coming along at the right time and being the only person crazy enough to pull all the information together in some semblance of order. He told me the Chevrolet records were just too massive (and too far inbetween) to try and do anything with - although - Chevrolets sold in Canada (or built in Canada for US consumption) can also be documented.

    K
     
  7. Chevy454

    Chevy454 Well-Known Member

    It's the politics that's holding up the Chevrolet-U.S. records, not the logistics...
     
  8. ramair2

    ramair2 Member

    Dont think it was Jim Mattison although he is curent PHS purveyor. Real guy deserving teh credit for saving much of teh Pontiac files is Fred Simmonds if what I heard/read over the years is accurate. for one thing McCary's awesome book routinely thanks "fred Simmonds" for his work digging throught the Pontiac files/ this was written/published in 1989.

    ps to rdl: right back at cha! if pontiac, scratch that BOP (heck we are posting on a buick site right?) guys cant hang togetether as buds, who can? :)

    ps to dan. if you are cloning to ram air II you will need/should try to find the following.

    1) 4bolt main 400. block casting 9792506 (used in 68 and 69). In 70 a different casting was used but it was similar to what was used in 68 and 69 on ram air II/IV cars. ended in "15" if memory serves? I have no reference material on hand right now...2 bolt block may work fine..but then again...?

    2) R A or R 96 A "ram air II" heads. ebay for about 2500 every so often.

    3) assumign 4speed here...either a 7028273 carb (rare /expensive) or another generic qj set up to run like a ram air II. cliff ruggles is the only guy id trust to do that correctly. there may be otehrs out there who can do it as well as cliff but i personally trust him...

    4) ram air II round port exh manifolds..impossible ($2000+) to find originals BUT ram air restorations up in michigan makes a beautiful set im told..about 400 a set...

    5) set of repop or original ram air pans/scoops etc...on ebay dear old granddad (or something close to that) makes a complete set for around 600 bux...lot cheaper than (often rusty) originals...

    6) intake for ra 2 is 9794234...however this is very common ntake and NOT exclusive to ram air II...used mid 68 through most of 69 on various applications...excellent intake but readily avaialble...

    7) 3.90 10 bolt firebird rear....zP axle code..this is near impossible to find but if its just the gearing this is easy..get a 10 bolt pontiac fb posi unit and slap in 3.90 gear set...of course the real zps were 4 pinion HD unts...this is good since they will be handling a whole lot of torque..maybe get a HD 3.55 set up and swap in 3.90 gears? cheaper/easier...


    ok think thats it! hope this helps!
     
  9. junior supercar

    junior supercar Well-Known Member

    Ram Air Restoration Enterprises is in IL outside of Chicago (unless they moved to Michigan and I missed something)
     
  10. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member


    Naw, it was Jim. He was a GM employee and pulled the materials together into one spot before leaving and forming PHS.

    What Fred did was go through the punch cards, one by one, looking for specific models, like Super Duty Pontiacs or factory lightweights.

    If Jim hadn't gathered everything up then Fred wouldn't have had anything to look through....:Smarty:

    I can't comment further on what the problem is with Chevrolet records (that was speculation on my part). I can say that my car was built in Oshawa for sale here in the US and that I have the production records through GM of Canada.

    K
     
  11. JLerum

    JLerum 1970 LS-6 Chevelle


    So, their is still a chance a car could be proved some day outside of personal records because the records still exist at GM?

    Jim
     
  12. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member

    I, for one, certainly don't know.

    The last time I talked to Jim Mattison about this topic he gave me the strong impression that Chevrolet asked him to pull the information together, like he did for Pontiac, and he refused. He already had a thriving business going and didn't need any more headaches.

    I will see him again within the next few weeks and will ask if the information still exists somewhere within GM. Maybe it's something I could take on....:Brow:

















    Hmmm....
     
  13. Chevy454

    Chevy454 Well-Known Member

    Keith: you're gonna need a lawyer...
     
  14. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member

    :laugh:

    ...I imagine GM has some pretty good lawyers....

    Seriously, I have been in production and engineering for almost 28 years and have been thinking about a change. I keep poking at moving over into the "historical" side of the business, like the Heritage Center or something like this. Trying to keep all my options open.

    K
     
  15. JLerum

    JLerum 1970 LS-6 Chevelle

    Well, if their is the possibility of those records surviving and them being sorted out it would be a goldmine . People would pay the fee for verification of the real deal. Pontiac guys have found that out. A lot of performance bowties that would love to have backup info. I also know that their are a lot of clone cars out their that would stumble because too many people are advertising them wrongly.

    Jim:beer
     
  16. Dave H

    Dave H Well-Known Member

    Keith:

    I know exactly where you're coming from as my feelings are exactly the same. There's a lot of misinformation out there, clones, replicas, urban legends, myths, and "general consensus things (even when proven wrong) regarding the really rare cars.

    I've been pounded by the Oldsmobile people for years to write a book summarizing how those cars were built in the time I was there (66-73), and actually am considering it and have started an outline. I, too spent half my 35 years in Engineering and Manufacturing disciplines at Olds and also Ford. Lots of similarities in the way things happen out in the floor today, but the engineering and development side of things today sometimes made me think I was from another planet.

    These were great times, great cars, and I guess it's part of getting old to reflect back and pass along as much historical and other related information to the people today that are interested in hearing and learning about that stuff. Most aren't, but I think there's enough that do, and it sure is fun doing it.

    You really need to build a Pure Stock car and come play with us 2 or 3 times a year. You'd fit in really well. You're a great driver and I think driving these cars like we did on the street years ago takes every bit as much skill driving them out of the hole as cutting a good light, releasing the transbrake, and letting the throttle stop drive the car. :Brow:
     
  17. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the kind words, Dave.

    I gave really really REALLY strong consideration to going F.A.S.T racing a couple years ago when the NSCA was introducing the class to us. I thought the Chevelle would be an excellent platform, since it was an original 454 TH400 car and came originally with HR70-15 radials (on 8" wide Corvette rallys!). Plus the philosophy was a really good match for my personal style. I was at a crossroads: either go F.A.S.T or go FAST!



    I don't need to tell you which I chose. I am sitting here now trying to figure out how to get this pig into the 9's! :laugh:

    K
     
  18. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member

    By the way, Dad did start to write about his experiences at Pontiac but unfortunately only got through about 20 handwritten pages before he passed away. :(


    K
     
  19. Dave H

    Dave H Well-Known Member

    That really is a shame, Keith. I remember him running a pickup truck in Street et at NMCA one time at Stanton. Thought it was great at his age. Then again, Paul Adams and Arlen Vanke were no spring chickens either. Seems to me Akron Arlen had just won his class at the Indy NHRA nationals.....in his 70's.

    Loved listening to his stories at Columbus one time. I recall a cassette tape of engines and runs that he carried with him and we played on my F150.
     

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