67 GS 400 rear axle seal question

Discussion in 'Got gears?' started by fireball, Jun 7, 2008.

  1. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    The old GM p/n is 1376776 and was supposed to be different than the Skylark one. I know the bearings are different for sure (RW507GR and RW507CR). In a Timken catalog, they now list only one p/n for both the Skylark and GS axles (though they still list different bearing #'s) for 67 as p/n 8594S.
    Am looking to replace the seals in a 67 GS 400 and don't want to get the wrong seal or some ancient dried out 30-40 year old NOS ones. Anyone know for sure if the 8594S is the correct replacement?
    Any suggestions are appreciated.
    Thanks!
     
  2. Topless64-455

    Topless64-455 Well-Known Member

    I would think the seal is different since the axle is larger. Maybe they decided the smaller seal will work. I bought new seals with the NOS bearings and it was like 10 dollars a seal.
     
  3. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Yes, the correct seal for GS & Sportwagon is 1376776. NOS ones are avail from Buickfarm.com.
    I have some of those seals here, and some 8594S seals, the 8594S seals are about 0.045" smaller on the ID. The O.D.s are both 2.575"

    Timkin shows the 8594S as fitting a 1.35" axle. My '66 GS axle measures 1.411".
    So those seals would be stretched 0.040 to 0.060" when put on a GS axle. I don't know if they will hold up, or not damage your axle.

    Your other choice would be to search thru seal catalogs to find one the right size. A bearing-supply house in your area might be able to help you out.
    I went with NOS seals...
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2008
  4. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    Thanks Walt, I checked the Buick Farm website and know they have them. I just figured that newer ones with modern material might be better (unless they are chinesium!).
    I have one NOS one around and really only need one more, but don't want to damage the axles on the car by using a seal that is too tight. Looks like I need one from the Buick Farm. :TU:
    Thanks again!
     
  5. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    You should pull the axles before worring yourself on the ID measurement. The car GS and standard skylark are 1.35 and are the same as early pontiac and olds rears. 1964-1967 and some 68 rears too.

    SO I would say physically measure the seal area and go from there. The seal you are looking for is a in the axle tube seal. The 1969-1972 are all out side the bearing on the axle shaft seal.

    I also think you might be getting these inner and outer seals mixed up ...1967 should only have inner axle tube seal In the timkin book it shows only the 8594s and I have not seen or needed and other seal in that year. So I would say that is you number. Jim
     
  6. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    Thanks Jim,
    Am not confused, I know there is only an inner seal on the 64-68 rears. This car has the correct coded 1967 GS 400 2.93 posi, so it should have the larger GS and Sportwagon axles. The drivers side axle is starting to have a bit too much end play. So my intent is to replace the bearings with some NOS RW507GR ones I located before the bearing fails.
    The issue is the seals. I can locate the #1376776 seals from the Buick Farm if necessary, but hoped there was a new replacement that would work instead of using some old ones.
    My 1975 Buick parts book show the regular Skylark rear for 64-68 as taking p/n 9775115 for the axle seal. My concern was that Timken listed only the 8594S for both the Skylark and GS 400 rears even though the axle diameter is different between them. The question is, will the smaller seal diameter cause a problem? I doubt it would wear the axle, but the seal could fail sooner (like this car gets driven a lot :Dou: ).
    Frankly, if this car wasn't all original, I would just put in a 69 or newer rear (have 70 2.93 posi around) and be done with those sealed bearings. :Dou:

    Thanks again :TU:
     
  7. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    Got some more info here. It helps to look in the parts you buy. :puzzled: Included with the bearings (bought on ebay) were 2 new seals in a National box # 9116S and a number 14088 written on the box.
    The 9116S no longer comes up, but the 14088 does. http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductGuide.aspx?mfrcode=SKF&mfrpartnumber=14088
    Looks like I have the seals after all. :Dou:
    As in the "original" Saturday Night Live.....NEVER MIND!

    Thanks guys!
     
  8. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Cool!
    I had the SKF OS14088 number in my notes, but I was never able to find it, or an interchange for it. Good to know it's available. Thanks for the info:TU:
     
  9. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    DID YOU MEASURE IT OR not? do not BUY PARTS THAT YOU THINK your car has. YOU must measure then. Books and build sheets are wrong alot of the time...Plus the car is 40 years old anyone could have switch a diff etc. Physical measuring is always dead on. Do you get my point? You could be killing yourself for NO reason here. Just get a set of calipers and measure the axle seal diameter where the seal rides -then you can start the witch hunt when you know you have the odd ball seal inner diameter. :pray: Jim

    That is all I am saying.
     
  10. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    I gotcha, will check to be sure. Am 99.999% certain this is the original rear as the numbers match to what should be in there. It has the two letter code that a 67 GS 400 2.93 posi should have. When the gear oil was changed, it had the 4 pinion posi in it, which I beleive most GS 400's had.
    Still, I will check for sure when the axles are out. The bearing #s are stamped on the new ones and should be on the old ones too. So, it should be easy to see what is there and to measure the axle diameter.
    I wanted the seals on hand first so that there was no waiting to finish the job when the bearings are replaced. Unless there was a factory switch, it should be the OEM rear.
    Again, thanks for all the information Jim. Your reputation is well known and your guidance is greatly appreciated!
     
  11. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    ok, wow. now here is another thing that you mentioned now too. 4 pinion posi...??? I would have never expected a 4 pinion posi in a high gear ratio (freeway type gear that is) Now I know 4 pinion posis were available in the Pontiac GTO 3.36 and up and those were the high horse motors and on pontiac 3.36 and up are the performance gears for their 8.2 rear. Pontiac goes 3.36 3.55 3.90 4.33 they are all on the same carrier...3.23 and down were all standard 2 spider gear single pinion pin design...??? I would really love to see this diff. could learn some stuff here ...Now anychance you have pictures of the rear diff housing for us? Like the cast center etc? Very curious about this. Jim
     
  12. Mike Trom

    Mike Trom Platinum Level Contributor

    I just had my original '68 GS400 2.93 posi rebuilt and it also has the 4 pinions, there was a '69 GS350 posi there also and it had two pinons. I know this rear is original to my GS400.

    Now I may be confused, it has the 4 spider gears verse the 2 spider gears that were in the '69 GS350 posi that I saw. Does the fact that it had 4 spider gears mean it is 4 pinion? I don't know anything about this stuff, I am just going by what I was shown by the builder..

    :beers2:
     
  13. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    Wow for sure, this gets stranger as we go along. Let me see what I can do and I will try to take some pics and post here. It may be a while though as the car is in storage for now. It only comes out 1-2 times a year.
    What I do remember is that when I changed the gear oil, there was a large casting in the center of the posi unit. It did NOT look like the 2 pinion posi units I have worked on. You couldn't see the springs or pinion shaft for the spyder gears. I have a 69 3.23 and a 70 3.42 that you can see the springs in the posi that appear to only be a 2 pinion unit (figured the 70 3.42 would have been a 4 pinion too, but not). It is 100% a 2.93 as the car only turns about 2,400 RPM at 60 MPH with 225-70-14 tires which fits that ratio.
    Guess it goes to prove that the factory did a lot of different things back then and you can never be 100% certain of what you have.
    Again, I will post pics when I get this blasted thing apart.
    Later!
     
  14. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Jim, for your database....
    My 66 GS has 3.36 gears and open carrier. (who in their right mind would order a big-block 4 speed car without a posi???:rant: )

    Some applications from 66-68 used a larger bearing, RW507, and a larger dia seal, GM# 1376776:
    66-68 GS and Sportwagon
    66-early LeSabre
    Olds Vista Cruiser 66-68
    Here's a pic of my '66 GS axle bearing and seal diameters:
    [​IMG]
     
  15. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    And the center section casting number. This does NOT have the lower reinforcement ribs between the center pumpkin and axle tube extensions, like I've seen on GTO rears.
    I don't believe my 65 GS 3.36 posi or 66 GS 2,93 posis have 4 pinion center sections...just the usual 2 spyder gears.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Walt, Do you think I can see the rest of the rear too. The lower control arm bracket areas from the back where the shock bolts up, spring perch area, The backing plates, Also do you have a shot of the carrier buy chance the open one? What was the axle tube code on that rear?
    1965 1966 for sure will only have the 2 spider gear design
     

    Attached Files:

  17. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Sure Jim! lots of pics on file!
    The axle code is LJ. Correct for '66 GS with 3.36 open. Date code is M4.

    Center section, shows single rib:

    [​IMG]

    Spring mount. You can also see how the housing flares out at the end to accommodate the larger GS/wagon wheel bearing:

    [​IMG]

    Lower mounts:

    [​IMG]

    No carrier pics at this time.
    I do have close up pics or the brackets on the 65 GS rear. Can I e-mail those to you?
     
  18. fireball

    fireball Well-Known Member

    Hey Walt,
    You wanna come over and detail the rear in that 67 like that. :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: Looks REAL good. :TU:
    Now you guys are going to make me pull off the cover again to look at that posi unit. I can't recall seeing the 4 spyder gears, but no springs could be seen. There was that piece of casting visible as in pic #1.
    All the other rears I have eyeballed you could see the springs. Looks like I have to do some more homework on this.
    I will post pics when I get things apart.

    Later
     
  19. monzaz

    monzaz Jim

    Yes I see also that your diff axle tube ends have th e1/4 cut stud head instead of the t bolts normally used indicating a larger bearing area. The olds rears used those 1.4 cut headed studs to hold there backing plates on too.

    Definetely not a wagon rear. and certainly is a Buick housing with the buick larger yoke sheild too. Well See that no matter how much you think you have seen and know ...YOU NEVER KNOW IT ALL. :Do No: :TU: Jim

    By the way that is some tremendous detail work on the car. Very nice work. I do not think I could ever get that detailed. WOW.

    That is a convertible too?? Frame says it is. Right?
     
  20. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Thanks guys! I'm doing a frame-off resto on a 66 GS hardtop 4 speed car. Silver mist, black buckets. Only options were 4 speed, console, AM radio and door edge guards(?). Going 100% stock. Body is back on frame last fall, so it's hard to see the detailed chassis now. oh well...

    Jim, I sent you an e-mail thru V8Buick....I have a 65 GS and a 67 Sportwagon rear here if you would like some pics.
     

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