Thanks for the info Dan. Probably kept me from making a big mistake. Well, I'm pretty sure the 1.812 intakes (1.820 actual) could have the diameter reduced some without hurting anything, even if the seats are left as-is. Make the edge a bit thicker of course, so grinding the seats down a bit would be prudent. Wouldn't be very hard at all to get down to that 1.775" dimension and 1.750 should be within reach. Might as well go with the same dimensions though, as you have the seat numbers. This leads us to the late 231 or 252 V6 exhausts as a logical choice. Right size, and inexpensive, but still have to check the length. Just as well, I see some light stem wear on the 215 intakes. At least I should be able to use the springs, keepers, retainers and rocker shafts from those heads. Good springs too, the ones competition cams spec'ed for their hot hydraulic grind. Now to look for a source for those valve seats... Jim Oh, and Andrew, yes the '64 heads should go on the '65 without difficulty. I'm not certain what year my 340 is but it still has the oiling through the deck for the rocker shafts so any 300 should be fine. They don't breathe as well as the iron heads though and for that reason most people stick with iron.
looking in my 65 shop manual today. I JUST FOUND OUT i dont have aluminum heads...WOW. even the guy at the hot rod shop said i did and thats why i have an Aluminum intake manifold for a 4 bbl now...wow f-ed up is that? *NOTE* when i got my buick i knew nothing about it, so i was just going with what people told me!!!ou:
Carry a magnet, works to find bondo too bun use a sock over the magnet so you don't scratch the paint.
I saw my quote in Andrew's post and thought: Where did that come from. Then I scrolled up. WOW did we highjack this thread! LOL! What 300 do you have? Wildcat 310? 355? That would be cool. You could find a set of '64 heads and loose about 50 lbs. I mean your engine... lol. If you don't care about weight those heads will be fine. Jim, the 231 valves are too long. I think about 100 thou or so, if I remember right... I'll look it up real quick.... I'm pretty sure the stock 300 length is 4.550". In my setup the Pontiac valves are 4.591" long and the VW valves are 4.606" long. The 231 valves are 4.730" intake and 4.725 exhaust. That's pretty long.... I guess you could shim up the rocker shafts. You could leave them like 50 thou tall for more clearence for a larger cam... BTW you keep referencing these 1.812 valves. What are those from???
Those are from the iron 340 heads. Looks now like I'll be buying a full set since I only have 4 valves I could use. They're new but I'd rather not mix-n-match. Looks like the length issue is something I'll need to sort out. Apparently Dan used the V6 valves (4.73x") and I don't have a set of '64 valves to measure but the iron head valves are about 4.650" EX and close to the same on the intake. I'm thinking the lifters could probably handle that much extra compression. Jim
Looks like Phil Baker was using a Manley VW 38mm (1.496") exhaust and a TRW Volvo V2927X (1.723") intake with 360 Chrysler springs, Chrysler Hemi or Crane 99947 retainers and standard VW keepers. But he was also shimming the rocker stands .040" and grinding the VW stem to match the Volve one. But if the rocker arm will clear the retainer why would an extra .040 or .100 of height at the stem be a problem? Tubular pushrods can be used and shortened to match if there's not enough travel in the lifters. I understand that the different angle will put a bit more load on the rocker, pushrod and lifter at initial opening but no more it seems than a faster ratio pushrod would. Anybody have some input on this? I'm going to have to mock something up to look at rocker clearance I think but if anybody knows about how much clearance there is, go ahead and jump in here. Jim
It helps center the ware/load over the end of the valve stem throughout rocker travel. It increases valve guide longevity and reduces valve train drag. I'm leaving mine long because with a higher lift cam the extra 50 thou or so averages out the rocker ware path. For example: The stock lift was just under 0.400 lift. My new Crower cam is 0.0488 so an extra 40-50 thou averages out the travel over the head of the stem. Make sense? I read a lot of race teams in the UK with more aggressive cams and stock valve length will remove 40-50 thou from the rocker stands to get the same effect. This effect is largely eliminated with a roller rocker. Here's a picture of how weird my set up looks: I'm considering yanking the Pontiac valves and turning down the VW intake valves like you were thinking for your intake valve heads. They are 48mm (1.88) now so they would need 120 thou dia removed. What do you think the draw back would be? The valve length would be the same then.
Boy what a great thread I posted. Look at all the information that has been shared. Thank you all for your willingness to share your experience and ideas and it's ok you highjacked my thread. Rick LiCastri Delray Beach Fl.
Yeah, we did hijack it big time Rick. Glad you don't mind. Any time you'd like to get back to your questions though, just mention it. In a way I guess we're still working on some of them. Nick, according to Dan, much grinding of the valve any you'll go beyond the hardened area of the seat. I think he knows his stuff, so I'd guess that if you go more than a couple of fairly normal valve grinds it might get touchy, requiring the seat area to be re-hardened. I've never seen that done. Have you sat your rocker shaft on the head and looked at the angle of the rocker arm and location of the rocker tip in relation to the valve stem? Just curious how it looks. I've got a stock Buick 215 head here and there seems to be plenty of room between the rocker arm and the retainer. It looks like the rocker tip will be right at the edge of the valve or pretty close to it since the way it is now I can't see any clearance at the edge, but I think it'll work OK. Shimming the rocker studs looks like a pretty easy thing to do though. Probably could get some suitable washers to make the job even easier. I find the idea of using the late 350 exhaust valve (1.550") sort of intriguing. I could probably get by with a V-6 1.710" intake and that would balance the heads towards the exhaust a bit, something that should work well with the blower. Jim
I haven't yet gotten to the assembly part. I'm busy spending like crazy right now. I'm buying adjustable UCAs for the Vega: And new axles and what not... As soon as I'm on uploading my findings.
I found this board just sort of looking for something else. I have worked as a (jobber, speed shop, dealership) parts person and helped out a bit around a couple machine shops in trade mostly for experience and them doing some fairly advanced operations on my Volvo motors (I've got one of the 40-ford styled Volvos if any of you remember those- that has almost 1/3rd more displacement than factory.) I also do some "thoughtful" semi-professional head porting at home. I don't have a bench but I have had my work flowed. Here's what I know about valves in the 4.6" range: S10 2.5 IronDuke/Tech IV are great from certain years, other years have wrong lengths. They are 1.73/1.5 and the right 4.6" length. I got mine from Sealed Power. They are cheap, both in price and in the fact that the exhaust has a very ugly sloppy head shape derived from the connection of the head to the stem (2pc valve). I cut mine down for better flow. These have a very nice rounded radius keeper- actually the same GM p/n adopted for the LS series V8's, with a decently large outer diameter. I am thinking of having these valves made up in good race quality materials and with a slightly bigger intake. Sealed power also lists a .030" over size head for rebuilder use. That would make them 1.76" and 1.53", though supply on these is spotty. **Edit I see the gentleman with the v8 project did use these. That height diff in the pic shows the difference soley in the keeper. Personally I strongly say go with the matching GM valve not the matching VW valve!! VW type IV (type 4)[Used in vans and Porsche 914. Very rare in VW cars on US and Canada- usually only if converted from conventional VW drivetrians.] The valves from Manley are very reasonably priced for the great quality, but they need to be cut down on the intakes (Someone said this already). Also they have a skinny outside diameter, rotating, 3 groove keeper. These will pull through even the better aftermarket black oxided keepers if you use big spring pressure and rev's. They are just too small in outside diameter. Also the small OD makes it very hard to find retainers that aren't already allowing them to drop halfway through!! Factory Volvo valves- They come in 1.73" intake and 1.38 exhausts, both at 4.591" blueprint spec. The intakes are a decent shape, the exhausts are too small and a heavy, bulky head. They all come with the small "bad" import keeper grooves. There is a guy in the Portland area, who keeps a stock of over size race quality valves of this type in stock- I can put you in touch with him. Factory VW type IV valves are smaller yet. Manley Datsun 510/240Z valves are the right length and use a slightly larger non rotating keeper. They are a bit shy on diameter for me at 1.715 and 1.5, and that is the limit of what their heads will take so you aren't going to find bigger. I haven't used these Toyota R20/r22 engines used in early Celicas and pick ups have a performance following that predates the import performance craze. They had similar lengths, but not 100% the same IIRC. Oversize valves can be purchased from LC engineering in Lake Havasu AZ. I haven't used theirs. The Rover v8 is hugely popular in England. I'm sure they're producing multiple sizes of valves. Are the lengths and diamters for the later 3.9/4.2/4.6 engines different? You can run an exhaust as an intake, but you cannot run an intake valves as an exhaust. I have cut down 1.94" intakes to 1.745" and you cannot tell they were modded. It all depends on the profile of the port side of the valve head.
Wow.. great stuff there... What is the smallest you can get the 64 300 combustion chambers down to? and how do you arrive at that? flat ? angle? combination?
> What is the smallest you can get the 64 300 combustion chambers down to? > and how do you arrive at that? flat ? angle? combination? I would imagine that flat milling the heads and intake would get you the smallest but I've not drilled through a head to check for deck thickness. I know Woody Cooper of the Wedge Shop runs a stroked Rover with 300 heads and claims 12:1 compression and a flat top piston. By my calculations, he'd need to be around 47 cc's (down from 54 cc's). You might ask him. His contact info is on his website at http://www.thewedgeshop.com/. Another option is to have the combustion chambers welded up. I talked to a shop here and the price wasn't to bad for them to rough it in with me doing the final smoothing. Welding the chambers also allows you to shape the chambers for a quench pad to allow higher compression on the same octane fuel. Dan Jones
Thanks Dan. I have a Rover 4.6 block with a dropped sleeve. a 4.6 crank, and 1964 Buick 300 heads. I plan on building a stroker motor but am still learning about these engines. I would like to get near a true 12 to 1 compression and run this engine on E-85. I hope no-one minds a few Rover related questions on this forum!
What is a Rover but a slightly modified Buick anyway? Same engine it seems to me. Hey Dan, I'm just curious if it would be possible for your guy to put big valves in my heads and clean them up a bit? (if so, cost?) I'm thinking that might be the best way to get the 340 done. Jim
> Hey Dan, I'm just curious if it would be possible for your guy to put big > valves in my heads and clean them up a bit? (if so, cost?) I'm thinking > that might be the best way to get the 340 done. My notes say it was $1050 for the Stage III porting and valve job. I supplied the Ferrea Buick V6 Stage 1 valves. To use those valves you have to replace the intake and exhaust seats and then port the bowls out to match the new seats. To port the bowls, the guides need to be driven to make room for the cutter so I'm not sure where you'd cut cost. You can call Jon Carls at: JDC Engineering 711 Walnut St. Minonk, IL 61760 309 275-2761 (cell) Jon is 200 miles from here (St. Louis) but I also have a guy closer to me that has done some good work. I can ask him about copying my Buick 300 heads. Dan Jones
Thanks Dan. I'd probably be best off to have the work done by someone with experience and a good reputation for that sort of work. They're not making any more of these heads after all. Plus that way I can concentrate on the transmission. I did just talk to Dale Spooner about the heads. He doesn't have a guy in-house right now for the porting work but said if I'm not in any hurry he might be able to get his guy in Vermont to tackle that part of it. By all accounts he's pretty good but he's quit working on anything but hemi's anymore it seems. So that's another option too. It'd be interesting to hear what your local guy says though. Jim
I sent an email message to Dave about duplicating the ports in my ported Buick 300 heads. Dave is the guy who has been porting my intakes and he recently did a set of 351C heads of mine for a friend's engine. Pulled 322 CFM at 0.6" lift with just short side radius work and a good valve job. Not too bad for a small block head. The most recent 408C with a street solid roller cam made 525 HP at 6350 RPM and 480 ft-lbs of torque at 4700 RPM. Not too bad for a 10:1 compression street motor with production heads. Dave figures 600 HP is possible with higher compression and more camshaft. Dan Jones
