1969 430 cu in with very little oil to the driver's side rocker arm?

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Waterboy, May 9, 2020.

  1. Waterboy

    Waterboy Mullet Mafia since 6/20

    Hey Guys,
    My son has a 69 430 in his GS. He bought the car and it had some serious missing. (In foresight we didn't hear all the ticking with open headers on it. That's a good way to hide engine noise if you're selling a car!) Long story short, we had the heads re-done, bought new lifters, and bought an oil pump kit from TA. It had lowish oil pressure. He put everything back together. It still has low oil pressure, like 25 psi all the time, and the driver's side rocker arm is dry on the front 2 cylinders. The passenger side has lots of oil. Is it a spun cam bearing? Any and all opinions are welcome.
    Thanks!
    John
     
  2. Waterboy

    Waterboy Mullet Mafia since 6/20

    Dang, no one wants to give me an opinion, a question, or a thought? Please...
     
  3. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Sounds like front cam bearing is toast......
     
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  4. johnriv67

    johnriv67 Well-Known Member

    That actually seems reasonable, if the front cam bearing has rotated and no longer supplies oil to one side
     
  5. Waterboy

    Waterboy Mullet Mafia since 6/20

    Thank you John. I kind of thought that, but was hoping for a different answer.
     
    stump puller455 likes this.
  6. Briz

    Briz Founders Club Member

    Remove the caps off the end of the rocker bar. Probably filled up with gunk. May be part of the issue.
     
  7. Waterboy

    Waterboy Mullet Mafia since 6/20

    Thanks Steve! Remember we contacted you on the phone couple months ago and you told us to do that. It was spotless inside. So unfortunately that is not the answer
     
  8. Thumper (aka greatscat)

    Thumper (aka greatscat) Well-Known Member

    Hi John, a couple things to consider.Yes,its a high probability that the front cam bearing needs replacement.Confirmed with ticking or lifter noise coming from driver side and lack of oil in the driver rocker area. When you do its a good idea to replace all with TA's dual grooved. Best to remove engine. Oil pressure issues can be clearance in the pump, when it was assembled were the clearances checked? If you are going to do any running of the engine over 4500rpm you need to do some oil mods to he block, TA pump or not, do them when its out.Good time to also check bearing clearances,was the crank turned?If not I'm sure clearances are too tight for any performance use.You don't know what shortcuts may have been made to get the car sold.Sorry about this advice,but I've rebuilt many engines that were supposedly fresh or "ran great when parked."
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  9. Waterboy

    Waterboy Mullet Mafia since 6/20

    Thank you Gary! I agree with everything you said. I think my son kind a got scammed. That's probably why the car only had open headers with no exhaust. Luckily he did get it for a cheap price. I guess he'll be paying for it now.
    PS, you're Greatscat car is always my favorite at the GS nationals!
     
  10. Thumper (aka greatscat)

    Thumper (aka greatscat) Well-Known Member

    \Thank you, we've had her for quite some time ,off and on in 80's, then permanently since 93 .A lot of history prior to my ownership, a race car since born.
     
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  11. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    John,

    Short of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, let's check a few things first..

    Your symptoms are not unusual for an older engine, but your not indicating that it's about to self-disassemble either. With no big knock in the oil pan, the other issues can be addressed, to put the engine back in limited use, before you go the full blown rebuilt route. I very much doubt you spun a cam bearing, never seen that... unless the block is broken.. more likely that the cam has worn a groove in the front bearing, and is limiting oil flow.. this is a normal thing on these engines. That front bearing can be replaced with the motor in the car yet.

    If it has 25psi all the time, check and make sure the oil pressure relief valve is free in the oil pump housing behind the big nut... It's possible to install that TA oil pump kit without replacing the valve... You have huge leak somewhere, or more likly, a partially stuck open relief valve. Hard to have that huge leak at any bearing, without some serious noise.

    If your so inclinded, take the timing cover off and get it on the bench.

    I or any of a number of guys on here can walk you thru the steps to check both the end play on the pump, as well as the by-pass valve operation. If you find something, it might be worth just popping the intake and valve covers, to remove the cam, and replace just that front bearing.. Rarely are bearings 2-5 a problem.

    I had a similar deal brought to me a number of years ago, buy a local guy... I rebuilt the pump with the proper clearances, and replaced the front cam bearing, and he is still driving that thing today.. years later.. It was, as far as I could tell, a factory built 430 with who knows how many miles on it.. the inside looked very "average".

    Keep in mind, that if you rip into it, it will cost thousands to do a correct rebuild. Anyone who does not think that, I will gladly send the machine shop bill to for my next customer's engine. Average machine cost at retail, here in the Midwest, for just a "normal build" (not cam tunnel or lifter bore correction, block girdles ect ect) is about $1800... Generally this is going to be higher on the coasts.. Any "overhaul" that skips the machining steps which this money pays for, generally is a poor investment in the long term, and results in poor performance and missed expectations. And every once in a while catastrophic failures.

    It will be hard to put that thing back together for less than about 3-4K in parts... the problem with a 400/430 is that they must have a custom piston.. the off the shelf cast replacement stuff will result with the pistons being .070-.080 in the hole.. I have fixed those 430 engines from folks doing a "budget" rebuild, only to find that the thing pings so bad, it can't be used. So your going to be spending big money on a custom piston set. I do believe I have a custom 430 set on file with RaceTec, that would save us the engineering fee.. ($100) but I have not bought from them for a while, as their pricing is a bit of a "moving target"... You find that out when you buy a second sec of the same job number pistons, where there is suppose to be no engineering fee, and they charge it to you anyway.. when you call them on it, they promise refunds and credits that never come.... most of the guys I know in the business have pretty much had it with them, and have went back to their previous supplier. I never had an issue with the product, just the service and promises..

    But I would not be opposed to making a phone call to do a price check, I did get a call from a new salesman out there, who I assume was cold calling the customer's who had stopped buying from them. maybe it would will be better now. I know if I do anything with them, I will be getting a quote in writing first.


    JW
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
    Philip66 and Waterboy like this.
  12. Waterboy

    Waterboy Mullet Mafia since 6/20

    Thank you for your reply Jim. We will continue looking into some of the possibilities you suggested.
     
  13. Little water boy

    Little water boy ‘69 GS, Turbo T “one piece at a time”

    Alright guys, I’ll chime in a bit now. If you haven’t guessed from my username- Johns my dad and this is my motor we’re talking about.

    First and foremost, thanks for the replies!
    Pops is missing a couple things though (beer will do that to you). The oil pressure was actually somewhere around 60-70 when the motor is cold. It was 25 or so for the first start up but we swapped to a weaker (or stronger?) spring and it more than doubled. The driver side head still was not getting any oil though.

    I did rebuild the oil pump with the TA kit and I believe the tolerances are as close as possible. Dad called someone from the Buick community and they said to pull the distributer and turn the main oil gear with a screwdriver. If I remember correctly they said it should have SOME resistance but not be too hard. I remember trying out several different gasket combos that came with the kit to get it where I think was correct. But I could be completely wrong.

    Also, I cleaned out the oil pan as best as I could and it was filled a TON of sludge. The oil pick up doesn’t have anything stuck to the screen but it could be full of crap?

    Thanks again for the help, Guys.
     
  14. Thumper (aka greatscat)

    Thumper (aka greatscat) Well-Known Member

    Waterboy jr. Sounds like your pressure is good,but that front cam bearing is sure suspect. It can be replaced in the car but its a chore.
     
  15. Little water boy

    Little water boy ‘69 GS, Turbo T “one piece at a time”

    Seems like that’s the consensus. I’m planning on pulling it hopefully this weekend to make it a little easier. Tranny could use a good going through so it’s getting pulled too.
     
  16. alvareracing

    alvareracing Platinum Level Contributor

    Jr, I think I have a (one) TA full groove bearing I can sell you if you need it. Let me double check or have your dad call me.

    Fernando
     

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