Yes indeed! Had I done a bit more studying first I probably would have built a stroked 300 rather than the 340. JB
I am actually glad this was done. It may not have been a 350 in the news but a Buick is a Buick and that is what I like to see in a mag. Different motors being hot rodded, This is what the sport is all about, doing something different. I would like to see the look on others faces when they get beat by a little "300" Buick. Someone is going to go home with their tail between their legs. The car could be a low 13 second runner with a 373 gear and about a 2800 stall convertor. :Brow: I like it all the way. Nice job on the article.
I have to point out that low 13 seconds does not mean much anymore. The new base model V6 Camaro and Mustangs now run well into the 13s and well over 100 MPH. The V8 base models Mustangs and Camaros are now into the 12s. There are all kinds of Japanese cars in the 13s from the factory now that you would not even expect. We won't even talk about the Z06 or ZR1 Corvettes or the a few models of Mercedes that run 12s and even 11s. This is in bone stock form on the factory rubber. The standard for high performance has been reset. Respect is not as easy to come by as it used to be. It is kind of hard to flex your muscles when little Sally's graduation present V-6 Mustang can give you all you can handle.
Those cars that do the mags are real racers. The cats on the streets can't drive. I have had so much fun going to the track and wipping on some of those new cars it is ridiculous. How many people out there can afford a 40,000 Camaro. You must have also missed the video where the Buick beat on a hot Mercedes. That 300 Buick has the potential to get into the 13's If he adds a 100 shot of nitrous to it who you think is going to keep up with him then. No V6 Mustang is going to beat me. That Buick is going to weigh upward of 3800 lbs or so. I am at 3800 lbs. I am smacking them around with out the nitrous. I had a friend that had a Camaro with a Vortech charger on it and with just a 75 shot I could beat him. Yeah the new cars are fast and they might have set the bar higher but I have a 100 shot of nitrous for them. Looks like they are in the mirror of my Buick.
Dyno Dave how much do you think you would have gained had there been a good single plane intake on the motor? ( not that such an intake exists)
With the port spacing, making a good single plane would probably be hard. I was thinking the port layout lends itself to a dual 4 setup.
> how much do you think you would have gained had there been a good single > plane intake on the motor? (not that such an intake exists) An excellent question! The Huffaker Buick 215/Rover V8 would be your best bet for a single plane on a Buick 300. It has ports that match Buick 300 aluminum (and the GM race heads used on Micke Thompson's Indy Buick 215). While it's often said that a dual plane is better at lower RPM and a single plane is better for higher RPM, we've found that in certain cases a single plane can be better across nearly the entire RPM range. On engines with relatively poor intake port flow (as compared to the exhaust and the cubic inches) and decent cams, a single plane really works well. In those cases, the cubic inches provide adequate intake port velocity that the dual plane plenum effect is not needed and the engine is starved for intake flow and the dual plane plenum simply presents a restriction (pressure drop) in the intake tract. We've seen this trend on both small and big block (Ford) engines. The Buick 300 would seem to fall into this category so I'd bet it would respond to a single plane. Dan Jones
Hi Dave glad to see you join in. Anxious to see what you and Karl have planned. Could you answer the questions I had in the post 34 above ?
When comparing a Edelbrock Performer RPM (duel plane) to a Victor Jr. (single plane) on a typical street performance SBC or SBF, the Performer RPM is usually better up to about the torque peak RPM, and within a few H.P. between the torque peak and H.P. peak (assuming that the motor's H.P. peak falls between 5500 to 6000 RPM ). In some cases, a good duel plane will hang with a single plane up to about 6500 RPM. But if the motor's H.P. peaks above 6500 RPM, the single plane will usually pull decisively ahead, especially if the peaking speed is above 7000 RPM. In the case of our Stroker 349, it is hard to say how a single plane would fair against our modified stock manifold without testing it on the dyno, especially because of the Buick's unique valve sequence which mandates a manifold with four very short runners for the center 4 cylinders and four long runners for the 4 corner cylinders. At first glance, it would seem that the Buick is at a disadvantage to a Chevy, Ford, or Mopar small blocks because of the big diviation in it's intake runner lengths, but this might actually be an advantage for a street motor and it may explain, in part, why this motor has such a wide powerband. It is possible that our modified stock manifold, with a good 1 or 2 in. open spacer, might actually work better than a single plane at lower RPM and hang close up to 6000 RPM. We used a 2 in. open spacer, but unfortunately did not have enough time to test a 1 in. spacer or with no spacer. Ii is almost for certain that our manifold benefited from the 2 in. spacer because of the lack of plenum volume in the stock manifold. In our experience, an engine always makes more power with an open spacer than a 4 hole spacer, although the throttle responce around town might be better with a 4 hole spacer. I appreciate your question and we need to look at testing a single plane manifold, if possible, on our next build. More to come Dave
Thanks for your interest Mark Answer's to your questions: 1. 1.52 to 1, we use Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Steel Rockers. With the aggressive cam lobes of our custom ground cam, these rockers still generated over .500 lift, which we felt was adequate for this build. 2. .020 down, combined with a .025 shim gasket gave a desirable .045 quench clearance. 3. The cam was ground on tight 108 degree lobe centers which gives a noticable lope. 4. Keep in mind that, from the begining, this was a budget build and I felt that the stock rods were adaquate with a mag inspection and ARP bolts. For higher H.P. higher RPM builds I would look at either a 6.0 or 6.125 Chevy rod. The Chevy rod will have to be narrowed and may require a Buick bearing because the Chevy rod bearing is .842 wide and the Buick is .742. 5. The rod length to stroke ratio is: 1.545:1 which compairs favorably with a 383 Chevy @ 1.52:1 ( with a 5.7 rod ) or a 454 BBC @ 4.53:1 or a 408 stroker Windsor Ford ( 351 based ) with a 6.125 rod @ 1.53:1. Check out Keith Black Piston's web site and read about the pluses and minuses of both short and long rods. Short rods actually have some low to mid range torque benefits over long rods. Thanks again Dave c
A forged piston is not a bad idea, just an expensive one that I think it is over kill on a street motor of this H.P. level. The pistons we used were not a plane vanilla cast replacement pistons, they were hypereutectic's with coated skirts. There are advantages in running hypereutectic's on a street motor. They are thermally more stable than a forged piston and therefore can be run tighter in the bores. This reduces piston rocking and allows for better ring sealing. Also, the oil consumption is less than with a forged piston because of the tighter running clearance. This is especially important with a high compression street motor running on pump gas because oil in the combution chamber makes the engine more prone to detonation as it effectly reduces the octane of the gas. Modern Hypereutectic pistons have proven to be very durable even in relatively high H.P. applications, which is why the OEM's use them, even in most of their high performances engines. The new Mustang 5.0 is rated at 412 H.P. ( which is close to 450 when using a STP correction factor like most hot rod dyno's use ) and it uses coated cast Hypereutectic pistons. A custom set of forged pistons would be at least $500.00 more than we spent on the Olds pistons, mainly because of the 3.8 bore size, add the cost of the Chevy rods, ( which have to be narrowed for the Buick journal ) and you might be looking at close to $900.00. I don't think it is money well spent. Dave
Not saying your choices weren't good ones Dave. Point is, that with the custom pistons (forged) you can specify pin height and dish, therefore you can run the rods of your choice for a decent rod ratio, such as Nascar Scat or Carrillo which you can pick up for about a hundred bucks off fleabay and still run a .040 squish on a zero deck without any messing around, and save at least a couple hundred grams of weight on each rod and piston, and run lighter weight wrist pins as well. All while putting the CR exactly where you want it. For a lot of non-standard builds that flexibility makes it worth it. Then too, you have a choice of alloys for the forgings so if you want to run tight clearances you can do that too, and then the only thing limiting your redline is the cam and lifters. No point in having a street engine that clatters like mad until it warms up, eh? JB
nice thread . good to see someone with unbias'd chevy n ford etc info that can jump in and put some new ideas up for discussion . nice little motor too . del
Jim, you're making valid points on an all out engine but what you're talking about pretty much misses the point of the article. As an engineering excercise maybe somebody will get some ideas from your discussion. What it comes down to is you can have just about anything built if you have a wheelbarrow full of :dollar:. I'm thinking the idea wasn't to just spend your way to the top. I'm sure it wasn't a budget build anyway. Too many people are poo-pooing the engine because it "only" makes 390HP. I'd guarantee you at least 90% of the people on this board aren't making that much HP even if you include the BBB's. They are getting jaded by all the magazine covers proclaiming 600HP with a cam change. You can just plain forget about the guys who jump ship and install whatever the latest non-Buick brand engine that is the hot item. They just don't get it as far as I'm concerned. I applaud Karl and Dave for taking the time to really try something different and actually get it in a magazine. Any press is good press for the Buick power. I'd hope Karl would fix up the driveline to compliment the engine and get some ET's but even if he doesn't when he goes to a cruise somewhere no one is going to be expecting that kind of rumble from THAT engine.
Only 390 HP? Anyone who owns a 300" Buick motor should jump for joy at 390 HP. I was on the opposite side of the spectrum. I was more inclined to be skeptical it could make that much power with factory heads. I think it is a tremendous achievement.
I may be willing to loan my single plane manifold for some testing providing my build isnt far enough along to require it.
Mike, I'm really not talking about an all out engine and I agree with you this was a heck of an achievement and very well done, beneficial to all the rest of us and all that too. The only thing I'm saying is that forged pistons don't automatically mean a high dollar build or a max effort engine. They can have their place in any non-standard build, especially one using a non-stock crank/rod/deck height arrangement. When I was building my long rod 340 the biggest limitation seemed to be in the range of piston pin heights for otherwise usable pistons and the biggest challenge seemed to be finding a piston that would work with a given rod and block combo. I'm not saying I think anyone should go out and spend the big bucks, but what I am saying is that if you want to build a stroker and you know what rods you want to use (for your choice of rod ratio) then it may be worth paying an extra $500 to nail it all down perfectly. Look, you have to buy pistons anyway. And you're going to spend around 2-3 grand to build the engine right these days, so for the extra 500 there's an awful lot you get for the money and get a near indestructable engine in the bargain. Some people may think this makes good sense. JB
Dave Thanks for taking the time to answer questions. I am courious about a few more things. Did any clearance work have to be done to get the big end of the rods to clear the cam? I noticed the article said you had to clearnce the piston skirts to clear the crank counterweights, did you also clearance the counterweights? What is the stock center to center length of the 300 rods, I couldnt find it in the service manuel? I fully understand you guys were doing a budget build but wondered could a hydra. roller cam and lifters be used? I have seen roller cam blanks advertised as avl. but Im not sure if roller lifters are avl. or if SBC lifters could be used. What have you guys got planned next? Can you give us a teaser? This is a great thread. Needs to be made a sticky or added to the 300 thread.
