wierd engine problem? electrolisis??

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by dan zepnick, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. dan zepnick

    dan zepnick Well-Known Member

    well last night I decided to take out my trans to send my torque convertor in to get it loosened up.and to fix the chamfer issue on my flywheel.get everything loose and the convertor is stuck in the back of the crank.after some penetrating oil and a prybar it came out.this is where it gets interesting... the snout that goes into he crank has a spot on it that looks like its melted.cleaned both up but this got me thinking! a little history,this is a new this year 494 bbb.have about 70 passes on it.early this year I had what I thought was ati balancer come loose and the surface of the crank looked pitted,melted.like as if it was welded on.kinda thought at the time it was from it wobbling but now thinking its something else.have the batteries in the trunk,ground straps to the rollbar and 2 from engine to frame.going to get the ohm meter out this weekend.has anyone seen this? why would the crank be the common area to have this electalisys?
     
  2. ctlikon

    ctlikon Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Do you have a ground strap from the engine to the body and or frame? Are you describing Electrolysis? That is more of a chemical reaction in an acidic solution
    I think it more likely that you might be having a grounding/arcing problem.

    Edit, I have heard of coolant going bad after some years and turning into a electrolyte solution and creating a battery solution in the block.
     
  3. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    The bad ground/battery problem will usually consume the 'lower on the periodic table' element first, like an aluminum engine component in touch with the coolant or even radiator itself. The coolant can 'charge' electrically.
    I already know this is a somewhat imprecise description... :grin:
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  4. Bluzilla

    Bluzilla a.k.a. "THE DOCTOR"

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Can you post any pictures? One would think that the ground path would follow the converter-to flexplate (3 mounting bolts), flexplate to crankshaft (6 mounting bolts).

    Larry
     
  5. dan zepnick

    dan zepnick Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    No picks,I cleaned them up already.yes grounds from body to block and frame to block.was talking with Mr reynolds last night and came to this conclusion on the torque convertor issue.with the jw wheel flexplate with excess runout that would cause the snout to flex in and out abit and maybe create arcing.I'm going to chamfer the mounting hole and check runout.
     
  6. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    If it's flexing and there's runout, wouldn't it just be galling?
    There's already a ground path through the bolts and case, unless everything was bolted together all gopped up with oily goop (such as a greased up messy starter not working right).
     
  7. 69GS430/TKX

    69GS430/TKX Silver Level contributor

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    That seems like the more probable explanation to me as well.
     
  8. dan zepnick

    dan zepnick Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    It could be galling? But the way it's pitted on both surfaces makes me think like something else is going on. I guess I'll just fix the flexplate, check runout and run it.next year!
     
  9. maddoggy

    maddoggy Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Sounds like electrolysis to me. With a trunk mount battery system, you need to ground to the frame, and the body/roll bars in the back. Then you need to run 2 ground straps high on the block with 1 to the frame and one to the body. Then you need to run 2 ground straps down low on the block, 1 to body and 1 to frame. That should provide sufficient protection from electrolysis. I would also check the Ph of the coolant.
     
  10. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    ^^^Also true...Admittedly, if the text isn't spaced out real well or punctuated I mostly skim by.
     
  11. maddoggy

    maddoggy Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Good point on the galling. Movement fore and aft would actually cause fretting, galling would be caused by excessive major interference fit.
     
  12. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Fretting refers to wear and sometimes corrosion damage at the asperities of contact surfaces. This damage is induced under load and in the presence of repeated relative surface motion, as induced for example by vibration. The ASM Handbook on Fatigue and Fracture defines fretting as: "A special wear process that occurs at the contact area between two materials under load and subject to minute relative motion by vibration or some other force." Fretting tangibly downgrades the surface layer quality producing increased surface roughness and micropits; which reduces the fatigue strength of the components.

    Galling is a form of wear caused by adhesion between sliding surfaces. When a material galls, some of it is pulled with the contacting surface, especially if there is a large amount of force compressing the surfaces together. Galling is caused by a combination of friction and adhesion between the surfaces, followed by slipping and tearing of crystal structure beneath the surface. This will generally leave some material stuck or even friction welded to the adjacent surface, whereas the galled material may appear gouged with balled-up or torn lumps of material stuck to its surface.

    While we are splitting hairs...
     
  13. maddoggy

    maddoggy Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Correct
     
  14. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Angular misalignment or movement would create great pressure if dealing with close fitting components.
    I appreciate the need for clarification :)
    Nonetheless...we must both be referring to potential metal transfer.
    I've had some sbc/bop adapter plate ones do this if not fully tightened, as well as Cad/Olds not fit up correctly.

    (I've seen crank register/converter probs like this a few times, but not anywhere near the amount of main cap fretting...which can have the presence of oil)
     
  15. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    The only electric arching with enough amperage to cause damage is when welding on your car, frame, body, rearend. And it usually shows up in your pinion , carrier, axel, tramsmission timken or roller bearings. Normally a torque converter when tightened to the flexplate is pulled away from any contact with crank. Unless your torque converter is expanding from heat, and then contacting the crank. I would check the hub on torgue converter and the pump bushing as well.
     
  16. maddoggy

    maddoggy Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    I have to say, that is not true. Electrolysis is caused by electricity looking for the path of least resistance. When engines are not properly grounded, electrolysis is the result and tremendous damage can be done. Lots of good articles on this subject.
     
  17. Phil

    Phil It really *is* a 350...

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Galvanic Corrosion?
    Typically happens between steel and aluminum.
    Also the reason shipyards put large copper plates on ships to act as anodes to prevent rust. :)
     
  18. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Electrolysis and arching are 2 totally diff things, and electrolysis is 100% certain not to happen at the torque converter snout, this guys problem was misstated as electrolysis . He said his torque converter was too tite. And more than likely was expanding , moving everything forward , . .... Hopefully stopped running it before the ole thrust main bearing lost some thrust or gained some
     
  19. dan zepnick

    dan zepnick Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    So to touch base on this topic, I checked the runout on my jw flywheel. It's. 030 which is excessive. Talked with Lenny at ultimate converter concepts,he thought that could be the cause of the snout wear.it must of been close in the area of wear.next call to jw to discuss what they can do for me. Need a contact number that's good??
     
  20. dan zepnick

    dan zepnick Well-Known Member

    Re: wierd engine problem? electalisis??

    Talked to Eric at jw perfect trans this morning. He said he'll take care of it.
     

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