Good Job Duane Duane, Great job describing the problem. Although I agree with all you have said, my biggest right on goes to your statement about "where are the people who said they wanted the stuff?" My complaints are not that a particular part won't sell, but that the people who said they wanted suddenly have disappeared. Usually, these are the same people who complain about the lack of parts or the price of NOS parts and wish for someone to make a reproduction part to stop the insanity. I think I've done this with the 70 tail light lenses. I agree with Duane's comment about people believing that once a part is reproduced, it will always be available and think that is why a number of purchasers vanish. Here are 3 things to keep in mind about making reproduction parts. 1. Minimum Purchase Quantities - Manufacturers of parts (not so much us vendors) require minimum purchase quantities and payment up front (they aren't into the business of financing the purchase of their parts). Whether its 50 lenses or 250 grilles, they require some minimum number to make it worth their time to produce a part. If you mulitply that number by the cost of the product per piece and the mold costs (discussed below), it is a lot of money. As Duane stated, most of us don't have that kind of money to sink into a part that will take 10 years to sell. The money sunk into that part can, upon recovery, be used to make the next needed part. If I had $400,000 to sink into a part right now, I could have 1,000 INJECTION molded 70 grilles made in about 2 to 3 months. That would be a cost of $400 per grille. I would sell them for $500 to make a 20 to 25% profit. NOS 70 grilles are selling for $650 and up (I've seen one go for as high as $800). Is $500 a steal......maybe not but its definitely a better buy than $650. And the thing to realize is that the price goes UP. I saw NOS 70 grilles for $350 to $450 a year ago. Now they are $650 to $800. What will they be next year ($800 to $1,000)? 2. Mold costs - inherent with every part is a mold cost. Typically, the mold cost is a fixed amount that is the same regardless of whether you make 1 part or 100,000 parts. Take grilles for exampe. Injection mold costs estimates from companies have been $200,000 in the US and around $50,000 overseas. The mold is capable of running up to 50,000 pieces before needing to be remade. Whatever the mold cost, we the vendors have to cover that cost up front. That means we have to cover it on the price of the number of [insert part] made. Clearly, spreading the mold cost over 50,000 pieces is VERY cheap on a per piece basis. The problem is that it would take several lifetimes to sell 1,000 much less 50,000 of anything Buick related. This is why we tell you quantity affects price. Using the $200,000 number, if you sell 100 grilles, the mold cost allotted to each piece is $2,000. Increase the number to 1,000 grilles sold and its $200. Still, high but not nearly as much. 3. Once Made is not Always Made - because of minimum quantities and other issues (such as the stockpiling of parts), the fact that a part is produced doesn't mean it will always be there when you want or need it. Take the lenses. I have to buy 50 at a time. I will not buy 50 to fill 3 or 4 orders. Also, when a Man. makes a part like this, if it doesn't sell, then when I go back to them for the "next part," they say "well, the other part you did didn't sell so well and we aren't interested in doing any more of them." I've already been warned by the tail light lens manufacturer that if the 70's don't sell, they are not interested in doing any others. I'm not saying this to try to get people to buy, Renee. I'm just being honest and letting you know what the deal is as relayed to me. Its just that simple. Even if I was doing this on a non-profit basis to me, the manufacturer is doing it for profit and expects sales. When I post about a product and interest in it, I'm not looking for pie in the sky responses that are an expression of mere interest. I'm looking for responses from people who are willing to step up and actually commit to and buy the part. This is how I figure out if a part can be made (can I meet the man. required minimums and will the quantity be enough to cover the mold costs and make it reasonable on a per piece basis?). When the purchasers I counted on don't come through, then I get stuck. I have received MANY MANY MANY emails about grilles. I want one. I'll take one. Put me down for 3. Blah, Blah, Blah. Based upon my experience with a few things, I figure that MAYBE 25% will actually buy. So, despite the 200 interested purchasers of a 70 grille, I figure there's only 50 real purchasers. One of the things that attracted me to the Buick crowd over any other car was that they seemed to care how their cars looked. That's what I thought the Fast with Class moniker was all about. I like speed, but I don't want the fastest turd at the track. I've always hated seeing $10,000 motors in a $600 bondo and primer machine. That's just me, but that's why I generall like the Buicks. From what I see, most of these owners REALLY take pride in HOW their car looks and runs, thus appearing more well rounded and not one dimensional. Sure, its a personal choice about how your car looks and how it runs, but as for me and my house, we will care about BOTH equally. NOTE: I am not BEGGING for people to buy my lenses. NO ONE should feel bad that they haven't or won't buy them. I'm just telling you how things work and being real honest about it. DO you want even more honesty? The repro 70 lenses cost me $105 a piece plus shipping. I expect shipping to be about $2 per lens including the necessary insurance. That's $214 a set. Now add to that a shipping box at $1.50 per box and bubble wrap at let's say another $1.50. Price is now $217 per set. And we aren't even talking about mold costs yet. That means at $249.95, my profit is $32.95 per SET. That's a 13% profit margin. At $279.95, I'm only making 22% profit. YES, I'm making a profit but IMHO, its a small one that doesn't result in "getting rich quick" off Buick owners. Thanks for reading. Alan
Well said brother Alan! I always say that " If you cannot clear up the confusion at least make the confusion clear." You have done just that.
Thank you for the insightful view Alan. I think that was something that everyone on the board needed to hear from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Not pressuring anyone to buy something they can't, but that is the reality.
Alan, I commend you on your honesty regarding your costs for the 70 lenses. Your selling price is a steal relative to what you have into the lenses. You obviously have a true love for our cars, to put so much time and effort into these repro projects, for such a small profit. Obviously, there are owners that are simply unable to purchase these parts at the time they are initially offered. College students with limited assets, maybe no credit card yet, and not wanting to build a balance on one if they have one, with an uncertain job market awaiting them after graduation... under-employed persons that struggle to make ends meet every month...some who have been laid off in recent months and are hesitant to spend until a job gets things stabilized... Then there are those that CAN afford to buy these lenses. When 68/69 lenses are made, I will pull out the credit card. When the overflow tanks are made, I will pull out the credit card again. When/if 68 grilles are made...well, you get my drift. I don't NEED any of these things now. And I couldn't just write a check to buy them either. But I want my GS to stay in my family, permanently. For that to happen, I need to have replacement parts for the day these things break. If my tail lenses are broken and falling out, if my grille is busted up and looks like sh*t, and parts don't exist, I wouldn't want to drive my car anywhere, and would just sell it off for parts. I could just as well drive the hell out of it for the next 10 years, then junk it and buy a chevy.... :af: :af: If you have a model year car for the LIMITED PRODUCTION RUN parts that are being made, and won't spend for them now, but could, don't go crying on Alan's shoulder, or mine, when you want parts in 5 years.
When does Alan plan on selling these to members here....if he is looking for numbers of interest, count me in:TU:, but I would need a deffinite date. Right now, my card is somewhat maxed, and maybe not this month, but maybe late this month, to mid february I would be ready to puchace. Please let me know....I'd rather take advantage now, so that if something were to happen in the future, I'm ready with new tail lights :TU: . P.S. I'm tired of gettin screwed by E-bay guys with there inflated prices :af:. Like I said before PLEASE LET ME KNOW! Larry:af:
Larry, you can call Alan right now and order the lenses with a credit card. They (25) are being made this month! If you check the bench, he has a long post in there, that includes his phone # for ordering. *** ok, larry, I see the thread is a STICKY in The Bench forum. The first post has his info at the end of it. ***
Thanks to all BTW, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for supporting the making of reproduction parts including moral support. And also, for not castigating me for my honest and forthright comments. My intent is not to shame or browbeat anyone into buying parts, but simply to educate you on the "process" as I've experienced it and let you know what's involved. There's an old saying that forewarned is forearmed. If I ever win the lottery, you Buick owners will never have to worry about parts. But at this point, my fate remains the same as Jim W's.......still working for a living. Alan
Alan, Great posting, maybe now everyone understands the problems reproduction people face. There is another thing I would like to say, and that is about Dave Kleiner. If it wasn't for Dave Kleiner of GS Enterprises a lot of the "Buick GS only" parts that have been reproduced in the past would not be around.(I'm not talking about parts that are the same as Chevelles or other cars.) For years he and his family have restored many GS/GSX cars to "Concours" condition. In order to do this he needed to find parts for these cars. His method was simple, if he couldn't find a part, or was having problems getting it, why not try to get it made. When I had my upholstery business I used to talk to him everyday, about one thing or another. When I started to reproduce plastic/rubber parts he not only told me what parts he needed for his restorations, but sent NOS examples so I could use them to make the molds. He did this with other manufacturers also, and if NOS examples were not available he sent the best examples he could find. Here is a list of some parts I know he had a hand in helping to get reproduced; 70 GSX Steering wheels 70 GSX Front spoilers (Correct) 70 GSX Front Baffles (Correct) 71-72 GSX Front spoilers (Correct) 71-72 GSX Front Baffles (Correct) 69-71 Tach Grommetts Engine wiring harnesses (Some) Window Felt kits (Some) Decal kits (The ones I sell.) Dash bezel Woodgrain kits 70-72 Hood insulation (Correct) 70-72 Rocker panel Moldings 70 "Buick" Rear bumper Scripts 70-72 Sport mirror gaskets 70-72 Rear Shelf corners 70-72 Courtesy Light Lenses (Correct) and so on........ I just wanted to let everyone know the amount he has helped us get parts for our cars, and think he deserves some appreciation. Duane
Street Car???? In the Bronx at the connecting highways or in Brooklyn 3 in the morning. Lay out the cash and roll it off the trailer fire her up on the street and race...oops I mean cruise. Now that's a street car NYC style. If it runs and its on the street, its a street car:laugh: Just make sure you win and get her back on the trailer quick. :jd: Rick
Another New Member Ok Jim, Your rally the troops post got to me, you have another soldier in the fight. And I have to admit the upcoming purchase of about $1k worth of stuff from Year One, and a couple hundred from TA probably swayed me. Len
Buying Alan's taillights will make three sets for myself. No I don't need them right now, but I am considering buying another set to sell in a couple years to one of you that say you don't need them right know. But of coarse it will be for alittle more than what I payed for them:Brow: If Alan can't get 50 sold now I doubt he will be taking orders for them in the not so distant future.:sleep:
I was set to order today I thought' i could swing the purchase of them looked at my acct balance and no i can't. the holiday killed me. I really hope there is another run of these made in the not so distant future (like 3 months) Nate
Maybe this is just a bad time to put these up for orders. As Nate said, the holiday season is a wallet purge. And to think I just spent all that money on another carou: It'll give me something to do when I can't boss my irrigation goons around. Adam
This one needs to go back to the top. Everyone needs to read the posts by JW, Duane and Alan and see the benefits of what the BPG can do for us. We need these repro parts, not everyone can afford the $250 to support Al's taillight lenses directly, but we should be able to swing $35 to help get these parts produced. Especially those of us who own '70 Skylarks or GSs, it's our time to shine; either purchase a set of the lenses (if you need them) or join the BPG and help make this a reality.
Maybe one of the problems with the 70 lenses is that the timing just wasn't right. Someone posted the eBay listing for $360 for an NOS set. The one thing everyone fails to mention is that they did not sell. Originality Plus (the seller) has been selling these for at least a year at $300 or so. I'm sure part of the reason that they didn't get a bite on this one is because of the possibility of repros, but I think a lot had to do with the fact that they are not currently in extreme short supply. Look at how many people have responded saying they already have a spare NOS set or two. I don't think a $50-100 spread between NOS and repro is enough to get a lot of people to part with the money. On the other hand, look at the overflow bottle...numerous people were willing to pay $600+ for one (it didn't get to $700 without at least two people willing to go that high). I have no idea what it costs to reproduce them, but an uninformed person like myself would have to assume it is less than the lens. Also, isn't the only difference between 70 and 71-72 the lid? Doesn't that imply a larger market? My only point is that I would have thought this would have been a much better project to go after (and I'm glad to see someone has, since I need one). Likewise with the side marker lenses. I do agree that the people who said they would buy and are no where to be found now are a problem. Maybe this is where the BPG can help out. How about if the BPG becomes the "escrow agent" for first run repro parts? One of you guys wants to repro something. The BPG takes orders (and the cash) and holds it. We all trust them to do what's right with the annual dues, so that shouldn't be a problem. If the predetermined breakeven point is reached, the part is made. If it is up to the discriminating standards of the BPG, the parts are shipped to the people who have paid. No more changing your mind after the part is made. True, your cash will be tied up for a few extra months, but look how many people have said they would buy "x" part "just in case they need it in the future". With that kind of open-ended philosophy, a few additional months shouldn't cause a problem. Noone gets burned if the repro never happens because the BPG would refund the money. The vendor is guaranteed that if he can produce a quality part, he will at least reach his breakeven point. Sounds like if everyone works for it, everyone wins. Regards, Ira (purchaser of numerous NOS parts for way too much money)
Yes, definitely the timing was not optimal...... I did order one set, and if there is a second run in the spring I may buy a second set with some tax refund cash. Maybe the spring will hold a better outlook for Alan......and us all. Hopefully Alan can hold out until then too.
