i am considering changing my auto to a manual ( now that all of the necessary parts a re available new). i was thinking of staying with a 4-speed the switch is easier and there is no floor cutting. does anyone know if you can get a 5-speed trans from tremec (the TKO 600) that will bolt into place using the original 4-speed parts and bell housing? also what is the best 4 speed to go with: M-20, M-21, M-22 or T-10. thanks john
Where have you found the necessary linkage parts new? The only thing that might work in a Riv are the linkage parts from a '71-'73 LeSabre, Centurion or Estate Wagon with three-on-the-tree. Those are scarce as hen's teeth. Skylark parts will not work, not without much modification anyways. If you don't have a Service Manual, check the links on the ROA website (www.rivowners.org) for the boattail site that has the manual online. Only problem is that they didn't bother including the full-size clutch linkage stuff that doesn't apply to the Riv. My personal, paper copy of the manual shows it all. It's a complex set-up on the full-size. I'm now piecing together something that i think will work. Using a clutch pedal from a '66 Impala and external hydraulic master and slave cylinders to actuate the clutch fork. I've read in numerous places how a hydraulic throwout bearing often leaks, then requiring you to pull the trans to service it. Hopefully it doesn't get fluid on your clutch when it leaks either. If you'd like i can send you photos of what i'm putting together. Just give me your email address. I'm at scs@cmd-corp.com
i am so sorry about the confusion. it is for my 1972 skylark, not my riv. my kids were climbing on me and i forgot that piece of info. "The Parts Place has the parts for the 1972 skylrak/GS new (including pedals). john
Hi John I'm going to be replacing the M-20 in my '67 GS with a Tremec TKO-600. Wait a few months and I'll be able to give you all the gory details. :Smarty: The following two sites have quite a bit of Tremec info: http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/index.html http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/ Len in PHoenix
the only problem with the TKO 600 is the HUGE hole you have to cut in the floor of your car. i am not sure that i want that kind of DAMGE in the car. it ia virgin floor. i was thinking (and you should also) of placing a gear vendors unit on the back of your four speed. there will still be some surgery but nothing like the hole for the TKO. just ask buickgsman. he has a TKO 600 in his GSX clone. but i am still undecided. john
Hmmmm.....you might also want to read through this thread: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=115193 I've been going off the info on the vendor websites :error: The info from the folks who have already done the install is quite interesting. Len
I like the gear vendor unit. Very nice. I'd like to see how much massaging of the tunnel would be in order for install. Only issue would be cost. If you were looking to switch to a tko-600 to handle a stout BBB then you're going to have to beef up that muncie to handle the power as well. Supercase, iron midplate, rebuild etc. is probably going to set you back another 1K on top of the gear vendors unit. Still might be worth it though, so you don't have to hack the tunnel. One nice thing though. You could build a nice stout muncie now and just add the GV unit down the road without any hassle.
that is my thought exactly. i am thinking that the way to go for me is the munci 4-speed built to take the buick, then later i can add the GV unit. i mostly drive in town and not too much over 55 mph. the 4-speed will be nice, plus no hacking. i do not beat on my car too much , but what do i have to do to build or have built a strong stout munci. john
Well if you were only going to have a relatively stock mill a standard m-20 would probably be fine. If you are thinking about something that is somewhat healthy say 425hp or so and you like to "stretch it's legs" from time to time like us 4-speed guys like to do then I would consider a Supercase which is a thicker casting of the original muncie case, about $260. And a iron midplate, about $60. This keeps the flexing down and keeps the gears from trying to push themselves out of the case. The M-22 gearset is considered stronger than the 20/21 gearset because they are cut on a straighter angle so it reduces gear stress but they also make more noise because of the higher mesh. Aftermarket companies are making nice repop gears and they are even making a M-22 set that is a wide ratio like the M-20 set instead of the close ratio m-21/m-22 set. Check this place out. They even sell a video that shows a guy rebuilding a Muncie with basic hand tools. Doesn't seem too hard from what I've heard. www.5speeds.com Heres another www.autogear.net
which is better for a 450 hp buick 455 with 3.42 rear gears? the m-20 or the M-21/22 close ratio? john
You could also wait till the new Muncie 5 speed is available from autogear? But who knows when that will be, then again it might be pricey. But its supposed to bolt in just like the 4 speed no cutting of the trans tunnel.
With the 3.42 gear set, the M-20 will keep the RPM drops in line with the powerband of the motor. 3.55 seems to be the factory cutoff on the wide ratio unit. So anythin 3.55 and higher numericly would be a close ratio and the Stage cars 3.64 & up had the M22. Of course nothing is set in stone. Your choice on the Muncie vs. B-W T-10. The Borg Warner is a bit more common now since the circle track guys have used up the vast majority of the Muncies. Super T-10's are quite common on the F-bodies. So this could be a cheaper route for you. Jim '69 GS California 455 Stage 1, M-20 4 spd, 3.31 posi
Hey guys, can we go easy with the term HACK? How about "lovingly cut"? it sounds way better than hack. Bob
Sorry Bob. No offense meant. Your install looks very nice. I'm just surprised at how much you really have to cut. Keisler definately makes it sound more "drop in" than what it is. I was pretty much sold on the tko swap until I saw what the real truth was about the install.
The M-20 would be much better with it's 2.52 first gear than the 21/22's 2.20 first gear. The BBB has enough torque down low to overcome the 2.20 ratio but it would probably feel sluggish off the line. It would also be harder on the clutch with the 3.42's.
Richmond has announced they will have a 600-ft/lb 5-speed with OD sometime this March: http://www.richmondgear.com/NEW5withOD.html HTH
check out www .jetboatbill.com he build muncies 4spd with an overdrive gear set for the 21&20 cases & he can build a stought m22 with autogear case
I decided to go with the Richmond after i saw the huge hole that had to be cut for the Tremec...Sooo I just ordered the my new richmond 5 speed super street, should be delivered in 2-3 weeks, (Hopefully). I'll post some pics once we getr hooked up.
Do tell, if you don't mind. What's the cost of this trans? I couln't find much info on their site. Also, what about demensions? Is it going to fit without a lot of massaging?
